Talia Sherman: Bridging Disciplines, Global Podcasting, and the Future of the Multi-Hyphenate

1
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,160
I had started out interviewing
some teachers at my high school

2
00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:12,000
and just doing 1 episode all by
myself.

3
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:13,680
And then I started interviewing
academics.

4
00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,520
I was already interviewing
professors by the time I I'd

5
00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,480
finished high school.
And so it just felt like, well,

6
00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,640
of course this will keep going.
And then it just kept keep

7
00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,400
going.
And then it kind of became my

8
00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,560
thing.
And I've loved it, and it has

9
00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,280
been so intellectually
rewarding.

10
00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,200
I mean, it's the greatest
project effort for someone who

11
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,960
loves to learn and for someone
who's excited about showing

12
00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,120
others how great and cool this
stuff is to know.

13
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,280
I'm excited to be speaking with
Talia Sherman, a current senior

14
00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,960
at Brown University studying
linguistics and English with

15
00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,920
honors.
She is an undergraduate fellow

16
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,280
at the Kogit Institute for the
Humanities.

17
00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,360
In the spring of her senior year
of high school, she founded

18
00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,840
Tomato Tomato, an interview
based podcast on language

19
00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,520
streamed in over 90 countries
and showcasing the voices of

20
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,360
professors from many different
universities.

21
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,640
Tomato Tomato digs into
interdisciplinary research,

22
00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,080
cutting edge theoretical
questions, and sometimes

23
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,280
linguistics journalism.
Notable guests include Steven

24
00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:27,000
Pinker, Emily M Bender, Jonathan
Rosa, and John De Niro.

25
00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,080
When not podcasting, reading
literary theory, or doing

26
00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,240
economics research, Talia can be
found backpacking or training

27
00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,040
Brown students to lead
backpacking trips.

28
00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:43,160
Talia, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me,

29
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,280
Jessica.
I'm really, really excited to be

30
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,360
here.
You and I met a couple years ago

31
00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,480
at the Cazadero Performing Arts
Family Camp, which is a multi

32
00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,760
generational summer experience
that brings together the arts,

33
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,320
the outdoors and human
connection.

34
00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,080
Very much an ampersand in what
it does.

35
00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,720
And I know you have been going
to Caz for many summers since

36
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:13,320
you were a kid.
How has Cazadero shaped you and

37
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,520
your many interests?
I have been going to Kaz since I

38
00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:23,440
was 6, and I think that it's
kind of like asking me like how

39
00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,920
the place in which I grew up
shaped you because it's such a

40
00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:30,440
constant, right?
But I think that more

41
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,440
specifically than just a city or
environment or a state, the

42
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:39,040
people that I've met at CAZ have
been so influential and

43
00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,200
formative for me.
And that even includes meeting

44
00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,680
people like you who I've met,
you know, in my adult life.

45
00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,760
But people that I met in like my
very, very young childhood and

46
00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,800
then teen years and tween years,
it's the people and, and I think

47
00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,280
the opportunity to be creative
and make mistakes and try new

48
00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:56,840
things.
So I love CAZ.

49
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:03,040
So on this show we've had lots
of folks who identify as Gen.

50
00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:08,320
X and Millennials and you are
the 1st and not the last to

51
00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,400
represent Gen.
ZI believe.

52
00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:15,360
I am so curious about how you
think about your career being

53
00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,680
that it's ahead of you.
What do you think is possible,

54
00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,480
especially in terms of multiple
careers?

55
00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,480
So boomers and Gen.
X and stuff, it's much more

56
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,960
common that you're going to have
like one job, right?

57
00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,440
You finish college, you have one
job and that's your career.

58
00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,800
And then with millennials
especially, they have a billion

59
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,520
jobs.
You know, this gig economy.

60
00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,320
So you are an Uber driver and
you play music and you write

61
00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,080
poetry and you might be in grad
school at the same time.

62
00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:42,440
And then you might become a
consultant.

63
00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,040
But then that's kind of like
something that you do for a few

64
00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:46,560
years and then you might go to
law school and you might have

65
00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,160
your career.
There's just like so much more

66
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,840
room for for multiple stops
along your career journey for

67
00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:52,760
Gen.
Z.

68
00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,480
I think we are comfortable with
that idea of with that

69
00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,080
indeterminacy, right, and that
instability.

70
00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,120
But I also think that I see it
as an opportunity to do

71
00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,840
different things with my career.
Like I don't, I don't foresee

72
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,960
that I'm going to be like one
thing for the rest of my life.

73
00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,160
I think that there is going to
be there going to be a few

74
00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:12,840
different stops along the
journey.

75
00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,079
And I'm OK with that.
And I think that it would be

76
00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:20,440
boring if I didn't have an
interdisciplinary career or life

77
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:25,200
and if I didn't wasn't able to
work in multiple methods or

78
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,080
modalities.
So, yeah, yeah.

79
00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,920
I'm really excited, yeah.
What informs your worldview

80
00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,480
about careers?
I think there's a lot of anxiety

81
00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:45,280
about stumbling into a career or
then a life that doesn't feel

82
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:50,600
exciting or challenging.
I definitely worry about not

83
00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:57,560
being able to I, I worry that I
will attach to a work life

84
00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,000
balance, the idea of a work life
balance because I don't like my

85
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,120
work and I, and I think that
life is life and work is not

86
00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,040
life.
And I think that I'm really

87
00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:11,280
interested in having like a work
life merge in situation.

88
00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,800
So I think that I, I just, I
think there's a lot of anxiety,

89
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:21,200
but also I'm, I'm excited and I
want autonomy over my career and

90
00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:22,480
hopefully I'll be able to have
that.

91
00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,800
But I, I think I always want to
really feel invested in the

92
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,560
projects that I'm doing.
And I want, I want to, want to

93
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,560
do them and I want to be excited
about them doing something like

94
00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,480
a podcast.
It's like it, it feels like,

95
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,560
it's like a part of me.
And so it I I do not make any

96
00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,920
money off of it, but it feels
very much like my job in some

97
00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,040
sense, or at least my side
hustle right now.

98
00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,200
Yeah.
How do you even think about

99
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:51,800
these terms?
Work, job, career, passion, side

100
00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:53,800
hustle?
Are they somewhat

101
00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:59,880
interchangeable, or do some of
them call to you more strongly?

102
00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:05,440
Yeah, I, I would never refer to
my podcast in all sincerity as a

103
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,920
side hustle because I, it's not
something that I do on the side

104
00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:09,640
to make money because I don't
make money off of it.

105
00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:15,000
It is, I would say, more akin to
a passion project, even though

106
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,200
that sometimes also feels a
little bit devaluing.

107
00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,720
I'm totally OK with the terms
work.

108
00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,040
I'm OK with the term job, I'm OK
with the term career.

109
00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,720
I just think that you might have
multiple different jobs and you

110
00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,560
might have a career as a
journalist, but your job might

111
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,880
be being a waiter like that.
That seems perfectly plausible

112
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,040
to me.
And so I call myself a

113
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,960
podcaster, but that's not my
job.

114
00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,520
Maybe it will be 1 day, but I
think that my job right now is

115
00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,560
I'm a student and then I also
podcast.

116
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,400
Yes, a student who also podcasts
and it's very impressive.

117
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:52,280
You started Tomato Tomato in
2022, you were in your senior

118
00:06:52,280 --> 00:06:55,680
year of high school and you've
now kept it going for four

119
00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,720
years.
I know that you produce it

120
00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,360
yourself, you edit it yourself,
and you also interview these

121
00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,720
really well known academics at
the top of their game.

122
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:13,680
You're showcasing their research
theories, methodological designs

123
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,520
and ideologies of different
intellectual projects and

124
00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,720
disciplines.
What have you learned about

125
00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,520
yourself through hosting and
producing this podcast?

126
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,880
So much.
I started Tomato Tomato when I

127
00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:33,960
was 18 in my senior year of high
school like you mentioned, and I

128
00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:35,720
didn't know anything about
interviewing academics.

129
00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,400
I didn't know much about
professionalism.

130
00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,560
I didn't know anything actually
about linguistics or, or about

131
00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:43,360
any of the other disciplines
that I've.

132
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,960
I've then gone in to interview
people in in those fields.

133
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,400
So I've learned so much about
academia and A and a just about

134
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,880
these disciplines in the process
of doing the, the podcast.

135
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,280
But I think that I've honed by
skills of being an interviewer

136
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,400
and listening.
I think that I've gotten better

137
00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,360
at listening and about
reflecting back to people what

138
00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,760
they've said.
I've gotten better at being able

139
00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,920
to hear a pretty complicated
idea that maybe wasn't

140
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,760
formulated super cleanly and
then reflecting it back to

141
00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,840
someone and making it a little
bit cleaner and more accessible

142
00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,600
and more palatable.
I've gotten a lot of confidence.

143
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:23,120
I think too, it takes a lot of
confidence and I think some

144
00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,320
would say gall and some would
say gumption and some would say

145
00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,600
nerve to be able to just cold
e-mail people out of nowhere and

146
00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,040
ask them to, to be on the
podcast.

147
00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,120
But it's not it's, it's not even
that simple, right?

148
00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,320
It's not that I am like, yo,
Jessica, want to come on?

149
00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:39,400
I make a pretty detailed
argument.

150
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,440
I show people that I've read
their research.

151
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,440
You know, I like to to think
that I put in a decent effort

152
00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,440
and then I've learned a lot
about myself in terms of like

153
00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,000
what's my research project
process?

154
00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,480
Because from the moment that
someone says, yes, I will be on

155
00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,200
your podcast to the moment that
we actually get on a zoom call.

156
00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,840
I read all of their work,
basically all of their work.

157
00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,000
And I think about it and I think
about it from their critics and

158
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,520
I think about it from
implications for

159
00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,120
interdisciplinarity.
And I think about connections to

160
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,000
other subfields.
And then I come up with

161
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,320
questions and I enter.
So I've just I've learned a lot

162
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,640
about how I work.
I work pretty well without

163
00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:19,120
deadlines because I think that I
am able to just keep a somewhat

164
00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,960
ish release schedule.
So I've learned I, I think it's

165
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,080
more that I've, I've gained a
lot of skills and a lot of

166
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,560
confidence and I've learned a
lot from my mistakes because

167
00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,440
I've, I've learned to be my own
critic, right?

168
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,600
Because it's, this isn't an
assignment that I turn in for a

169
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,280
class where professor says,
here's my feedback for you.

170
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,000
This is where you could have
expanded or this is where I

171
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,600
didn't like this.
I don't get that feedback.

172
00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:43,080
So I have to provide that
feedback.

173
00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:49,200
Tell me a little bit about how
you started with the idea.

174
00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,680
So a lot of people have ideas
for podcasts, and a lot of those

175
00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:57,800
ideas just kind of live out in
the ether and don't ever make

176
00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,320
it.
Or, you know, some podcasts have

177
00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:02,880
a few episodes and then they
fizzle out.

178
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,600
How did you really get this to
start up and what has kept you

179
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,520
going?
It was a senior project

180
00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,560
actually, this was, I was doing
an independent study on what

181
00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:17,320
became an independent study on
sociolinguistics, although I

182
00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,160
didn't know the term
sociolinguistics when I proposed

183
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,640
this independent study.
And then the podcast was the

184
00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,240
project for it was my senior
project.

185
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:32,040
And it kept going because it did
not feel inherently anchored in

186
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,880
high school.
I had started out interviewing

187
00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,880
some teachers at my high school
and just doing 1 episode all by

188
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:39,240
myself.
And then I started interviewing

189
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:40,640
academics.
I was already interviewing

190
00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,840
professors by the time I I'd
finished high school.

191
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,200
And so it just felt like, well,
of course this will keep going.

192
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:48,720
And then it just kept keep
going.

193
00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:54,920
And then it kind of became my
thing and I've loved it and it

194
00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,760
has been so intellectually
rewarding.

195
00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,720
I mean, it's the greatest
project effort for someone who

196
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,960
loves to learn and for someone
that's just excited about about

197
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,480
like showing others how great
and cool this stuff is to know.

198
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,600
So it's, it's just a great
project on all sides for me.

199
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,800
And so it's, there's never, ever
been a thought in my head like,

200
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,720
oh, this shouldn't continue
because naturally it's run its

201
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,200
course or something.
Sometimes I think, wow, this is

202
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:23,640
a lot of work.
And I don't know if I can keep

203
00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,920
doing this, that there's, there
have definitely been times

204
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,360
because as you said, right, I do
all the editing myself.

205
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,800
I do all the producing myself.
And it's just a lot of time and

206
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,240
a lot of work.
And there have been like days

207
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,960
where I've like broken down in
tears because it's taken me like

208
00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,560
6 hours to record, you know, a
minute and 30 seconds of audio

209
00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:41,400
for an intro.
And I'm like, I'm like, Oh my

210
00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,640
God, I'm failing and I'm gonna
never do this again.

211
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:48,960
But I I think I just love it too
much to ever fully stop.

212
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,720
Let's take a moment to reflect
on this question.

213
00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,920
What is something that you love
to do that you can't imagine

214
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:06,520
ever stopping?
Are you an Ampersand?

215
00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,680
Looking for community
inspiration and resources?

216
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:14,440
Come join us in the cohort where
we help you grow and scale your

217
00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,480
creative and professional
aspirations.

218
00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:20,680
If you're looking for more
dedicated support, ioffer

219
00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:24,040
executive coaching for business
leaders, people managers,

220
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,080
creatives, and of course,
Ampersands.

221
00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,720
Find out more about the cohort
and one-on-one Coaching at

222
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,920
jessica1.com.
Now, back to the show.

223
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:44,360
Besides the ampersand of student
and content creator, you also

224
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:49,320
call yourself both a nerd and
outdoors enthusiast.

225
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,800
So on the one hand, you've
worked as an RA in economics and

226
00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:59,280
AI without ever even having
taken an Econ or CS class, and

227
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,520
on the other hand you've done
things like leading A5 day

228
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,120
backpacking trip for fellow
students in the White Mountains.

229
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:12,400
How do you think nature and the
great outdoors helps you with

230
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,720
the more academic in your head
world and vice versa?

231
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,760
I might push back on it a little
bit and just say that like it's

232
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,200
I don't even think about it as
like the outdoors are super

233
00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,320
influential in Hawaii.
A person, I think of it as

234
00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,680
leading a trip for other
students in the outdoors

235
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:38,160
requires a lot of training and a
lot of whether or not you have

236
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,040
the confidence, acting like you
have the confidence to take a

237
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,320
bunch of students into the
outdoors and not only get them

238
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,360
to survive and thrive, etcetera,
but also have a really great

239
00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,640
time bond and make lasting
memories.

240
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,720
So the outdoors is, it's just,
that's just the place that

241
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,840
facilitates all that kind of
human connection.

242
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,840
I just see the outdoors as so
powerful.

243
00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,320
It the, the, the ability of the
outdoors to facilitate human

244
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,160
connection is incredibly
powerful and I'm in awe of it at

245
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:08,360
all times.
As a student, I just think a lot

246
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,160
about bridging connections
because I think that sometimes,

247
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:14,920
like when you're leading people
in a group or when you're trying

248
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,840
to get to know other people,
just being able to bridge the

249
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:18,840
connection, right, to say to
someone, oh, you're interested

250
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:19,640
in this.
Oh, I know someone that's

251
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,880
interested in that too.
Or, oh, you know, you're really

252
00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,320
interested in modal logic that
has implications for, you know,

253
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,160
formal semantics.
It's just all kinds of rich in

254
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:29,240
connections.
It really is.

255
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,840
And so something I just, I love
about being groups of people in

256
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,520
the outdoors is like, you're
not, you've done technology, you

257
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,960
don't have all kinds of things
to distract you and you just get

258
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,440
to know each other.
And the way that you get to know

259
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,000
each other is finding
commonalities.

260
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,200
And that's exactly the way that
a lot of scholarship works.

261
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,880
It's finding commonalities,
finding isomorphisms, finding

262
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:47,360
commonalities in your
methodology, right?

263
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,960
Refining the methodology so that
it applies to your discipline or

264
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,880
doesn't.
And so I have never actually

265
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,280
made the connection between the
outdoors and my studies before,

266
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,320
but thank you for bringing that
to my attention because that's

267
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,720
awesome.
But yeah, I love the outdoors.

268
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:06,400
I think it's a great place to be
and it's a great place for like,

269
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,120
nerds to kind of hang out.
I think that there's a lot of

270
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:15,000
really cool stuff.
Like, I am not a very, I'm not

271
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,520
someone that like studied knots
as a kid or something, but I've

272
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,840
definitely been outside with a
lot of kids who go to brown and

273
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,480
have studied knots forever and
they're still fascinated by like

274
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,560
the movement of clouds and, and,
and like plant ecology.

275
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,520
And that's just so not on my
radar.

276
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,600
Like, I am not a natural
scientist or I don't think of

277
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,840
myself as a natural scientist or
a hard scientist, But I think

278
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,480
that getting exposed to all that
kind of that kind of perspective

279
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,040
in the outdoors is really
valuable.

280
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,040
I have had the honor of being in
very artistic settings with you,

281
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,760
and I know that you are an avid
singer.

282
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,560
You're very enthusiastic about
performing and improv.

283
00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,920
You're also a very talented
writer.

284
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,240
What do you think ties together
all of these interests?

285
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,680
Determination is probably the
first thing like a desire to be

286
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,640
good at those things.
I really desire to be good at

287
00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:08,080
writing and I always desire to
be good at writing.

288
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,400
And when people say like, Oh,
you're a good writer, I'm like,

289
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,000
thanks.
But I did like this was a lot of

290
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,560
time and effort.
Like I did not wake up good at

291
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,360
writing.
It takes a lot of work.

292
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,880
So like I think with the podcast
as well, like you're reporting

293
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:21,320
out, it just takes a lot of work
and time.

294
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,440
And I'm happy to put in that
investment.

295
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,400
I truly am right.
It's like it's the joy of a

296
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,520
lifetime to get to do that.
But, but I'm not by any, by any

297
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,960
means naturally gifted writer in
terms of of singing or dancing.

298
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,360
I think it's, it's partly a
desire to be good at those

299
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:38,400
things.
I mean, I think that there's a

300
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,720
little bit more of that like
natural inclination to do

301
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,840
something.
But I love the expressivity of

302
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,360
those things.
I love how dancing is kind of

303
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,880
like a language and there are
like different kinds of

304
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,080
languages.
And this dance is a different

305
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,960
language than that dance.
But if you meet someone and you

306
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:54,800
know one language and they know
the other, but maybe there's

307
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,680
like a commonalities between
them, then you can start talking

308
00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:02,080
to each other.
It's great with singing, like

309
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,839
physiologically I just think
it's like a powerful way to

310
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,480
relieve stress, get emotions
out.

311
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,640
Singing with other people is
also really joyful.

312
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,680
So I, I find that cool, but I
don't do as much singing or

313
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:22,599
dancing in my life these days.
I think I do much more writing,

314
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:24,400
which is a more solitary
activity.

315
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,720
And I think that currently in
the discourse, we think of

316
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,880
writing as kind of a self
exploration exercise.

317
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:37,360
And it can be, but not always.
But I guess like I want to, I

318
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:39,000
would be worried if I felt like
I was only doing self

319
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,080
exploration exploration.
I think it's really important to

320
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,240
dance with other people and sing
with other people and write

321
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,680
within four other people.
Like I, I, I'm cognizant of the

322
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,200
fact that I, the podcast is
really a very solitary effort

323
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:58,320
besides my interviewees.
So I try to get other like

324
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,040
community with other people as
much as I can.

325
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,760
Yeah, community is a theme
that's come up again and again,

326
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:09,720
and I'm curious how you think
about your podcast as creating a

327
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,400
community.
When I hear from people that

328
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,640
enjoy my podcast or have
listened to 1 to 20 episodes,

329
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,920
it's really touching and it
feels like such a huge honor

330
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,280
that like someone would want to
listen to my podcast.

331
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,320
I mean, still like I'm kind of
shocked when I see my streaming

332
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,400
numbers.
I'm like, how right, It's great.

333
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:36,520
So there's that community.
But I think also as as the

334
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,360
podcast has gone on, I know that
some of my episodes have been

335
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,480
put on class syllabi and
assigned to students.

336
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,560
And that's really cool because
it facilitates like something

337
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,560
within the already created class
community, like when an

338
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,000
anthropology class is to listen
to one of my episodes and then

339
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,240
they have to come in and talk
about it.

340
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,120
That's kind of cool.
And so I, I like that.

341
00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,480
I also think it's great when a
person that's like an an

342
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,840
interviewee that's been on my
podcast will will talk about

343
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,440
like the various other things
that they do to be an

344
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,240
intellectual community with
other people, whether that's

345
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,440
podcasting or not, You know,
podcasting is not at all the

346
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,720
only medium through which people
get together or create community

347
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:19,840
and talk about these topics.
So I think that my podcast is is

348
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,280
not the community in the sense
that I like live stream it and

349
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,240
people are, you know, commenting
while I'm live streaming the

350
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:27,720
podcast.
Like it's, it's not that kind of

351
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,800
community, but I love, I love,
love, love.

352
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,840
And I'm so humbled every time
someone tells me that they've

353
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:35,800
learned something or that
they've enjoyed an episode.

354
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:41,160
It sounds like it's been a great
resource for a lot of folks.

355
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:47,640
On a more practical level, how
do you think about your life as

356
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,080
both a student and creator in
terms of your time and energy?

357
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,280
And you alluded to this earlier,
like sometimes it can take a

358
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,640
really long time.
It can.

359
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:05,920
It can take a really long time.
I think that I would love it if

360
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,680
I could be less disheartened by
how.

361
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,840
How long it takes me to do
certain things, I think, you

362
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,720
know, because like, writing a
paper in the grand scheme of

363
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,800
things doesn't actually take
that long in comparison to doing

364
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,440
a podcast episode.
And I think that that's why

365
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,920
podcasting often feels like such
a solitary effort, because the

366
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,240
interview is what, like an hour
and a half or something?

367
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,360
Sometimes longer, sometimes
shorter hours and hours and

368
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,360
hours of audio editing and
prepping for the interview and

369
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:37,520
writing the questions and then
producing it.

370
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,160
Like there's just the time that
I've spent on Zoom with other

371
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,680
person, it's completely dwarfed
for the time I spend actually

372
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,640
producing the episode.
And so practically, I think that

373
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,280
I just tricked myself into
thinking that these aren't

374
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,520
different things.
Like this is a part of my

375
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,520
studies.
Like this is enriching who I am

376
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,360
as a student and I think are so
of course I should do this.

377
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,360
And it's not all miserable at
all at all.

378
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,400
Like sometimes I think it's so
fun to just sit down and edit

379
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,680
audio for a couple hours.
It's like calming.

380
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,040
It's can be kind of therapeutic
and cathartic, like you just get

381
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,400
something perfect.
But it also can be really hard

382
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,200
to figure out what the right
thing to say is.

383
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,920
And I worry about people judging
me and I worry that I'm missing

384
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,560
the point.
I, I worry about all these

385
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:20,880
things like I, I think I worry a
lot.

386
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,400
I'm realizing that now.
And so I, I just, I think I just

387
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,800
try to trick myself into
thinking that like these things

388
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,360
mutually reinforce each other
and it's going to be fine.

389
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,440
Maybe it's not a trick and maybe
this is true, right?

390
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:42,600
And you're already living this
integrated life between work

391
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,240
life, identity, all of these
things.

392
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,040
One goal we have with this
podcast is to Co create the

393
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,040
Ampersand Manifesto principles
for leading a multi passionate

394
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,000
life.
What are some principles that

395
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,240
you live by?
Being a nerd and intellectual is

396
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:02,480
a really big part of me and it's
something that I'm proud of and

397
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:03,560
it's something that I want to
maintain.

398
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,360
But like it just does matter.
And, and, and I think that like

399
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:10,280
I kind of go crazy if I like
don't, if I'm not like learning

400
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,640
new things sometimes.
So I just try to like always

401
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,840
keep things fresh.
So I don't know, by the time

402
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,480
this comes out, I may have
already interviewed him, but

403
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,080
currently I'm on track to
interview actually a physicist

404
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,240
next week.
Never interviewed A physicist.

405
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,040
Like that's totally out of the
picture so far, but like, why

406
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,280
not?
And it'll compare it later.

407
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:31,880
Why this physicist didn't for
what reasons?

408
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,240
But I, I just, it's like I, I
cannot, I can't ever stay too

409
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,680
comfortable.
So I have to keep like pushing

410
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,440
the boundary of what the podcast
is about.

411
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,920
Or is it was it used to be on
socio linguistics said if it was

412
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,160
on linguistics, now it's on
language.

413
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,200
Now it's sort of just kind of
interview based.

414
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,560
And I interview academics like
there's just just think that

415
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,240
like there has, there are very
few things that I don't find

416
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:57,440
interesting.
If I can find like some pathway

417
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,400
in it, there's like some window
where I'm like, I see something

418
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,680
that I've done that's similar to
what they're doing in that

419
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:03,840
house.
I'm going to go inside the

420
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,080
house.
A lot of metaphors going on

421
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:10,600
here, so I apologize, but I just
try to like challenge myself.

422
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,520
Talia, it's been so wonderful
talking with you folks.

423
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,560
You can learn more about Talia
at taliasherman.com and find

424
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,760
Tomato Tomato wherever you get
your podcasts.

425
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,320
If you liked this show, share it
with your friends and fellow

426
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,520
Ampersands, and make sure to hit
the follow button to be notified

427
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:38,080
when new episodes drop.
It would mean the world to us if

428
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,560
you took two minutes to rate and
review the show.

429
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,720
Just go to the main show page on
Apple Podcasts or Spotify and

430
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,680
look for the stars.
I had a chance to listen back on

431
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,880
my conversation with Talia and I
wanted to share a few

432
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:59,000
reflections.
One, I felt so seen at the

433
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,280
beginning of the interview when
Talia said that millennials,

434
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:08,360
quote, have a million jobs.
For better or for worse, I was

435
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:12,720
chuckling on the inside.
I think back to how many of my

436
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:18,240
peers and I were raised with the
belief that you can grow up to

437
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,160
be and do anything.
And I think for some of us high

438
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,840
achievers, we took that to mean
you should be and do everything.

439
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,000
And now we're unlearning the
harmful parts of that while

440
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,160
harnessing the go getter
attitude that helps to make

441
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:42,000
things possible. 2 I am so
inspired by how Talia started

442
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,160
her podcast as a senior in high
school for her senior project.

443
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,600
I think at that point I was
working in an OfficeMax.

444
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,920
Suffice to say, technology and
accessible tools have changed

445
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,760
the world.
They've made it possible for

446
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,960
really anyone, at any age, to
explore their curiosity and

447
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,400
create something of their own.
All you need is a device,

448
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,160
Internet connection, and some
headphones and the will to keep

449
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,640
going.
The barrier to entry is as low

450
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:23,640
as it's ever been for aspiring
creators. 3 I love how Talia

451
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,920
talks about her podcast as the
absolute best project for

452
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,160
someone who loves to learn.
A couple years ago, I had a

453
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,680
moment of deep reflection around
this podcast, which I'd also

454
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,320
classify as a passion project
and as work.

455
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,520
My question was around value.
What is the value?

456
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,960
What I discovered was that
beyond the value I know this

457
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:55,040
podcast brings to listeners and
to our guests, the value for me

458
00:25:55,040 --> 00:26:00,840
personally is that this podcast
makes me a better coach and a

459
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,920
better human being, more
well-rounded, more curious, more

460
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,080
present.
And I'm so grateful for it.