Christof Zürn: Using Music Thinking to Orchestrate Innovation

0:06 Every perspective has its own right and everything that I did, I see things from different perspectives and see connections that others don't see. And I think that's a bit rooted in my upbringing. It took me many years to understand the the word joiner itself. But when I understood that joiner is the woodworker bringing things together, and that joiner also is someone who can join something or join people that was from you, I thought, OK, what you do in one words, OK, I know one. It's a joiner. I'm delighted to talk today with Christophe Tune, a strategy facilitator and creative companion who uses the dynamics of music to help leaders orchestrate innovation and turn complexity into clarity.

0:54 A joiner by trade with an MA in Musicology, he combines the precision of craftsmanship with the fluidity of strategic thinking to unlock momentum in teams. In the 90s, he pioneered digital music interaction, interviewing legends like Daniel Berenboim and B.B. King. Today, he channels that diverse experience into guiding leadership programs and workshops for global clients. Alongside his consulting practice, he lectures in Creative Business at Utrecht University of Applied Sciences, and he performs with the improvising collective Rao Muzique fur Saxophone, as well as with other ensembles. He is the author of the book The Power of Music Thinking and host of the podcast of the same name.

1:50 Christoph, Welcome to the show. Thank you very much, Jessica. Nice to be here. It's wonderful to be in this type of setting with you again. We met last year when you invited me on your podcast The Power of Music Thinking. Your podcast curates fascinating conversations that reveal patterns and analogies of sound and music for other uses. You've talked about AI to soil, eco acoustics, Sonic investigation and marketing as you and I talked about. What is your goal with your podcast? Frankly speaking, I don't really.

2:31 I didn't really have a goal in the beginning. It started, I was writing the book and I gave the book to some friends to read and give me feedback. And then something happened that I was invited on the podcast like this to talk about thinking. And after listening this back, I thought, hey, wow, I'm much easier in talking than writing. So I put the site for a moment and thought you can start my podcast of, of, of their own. But what kind of podcast should it be? And then I thought, I only want to have one kind of a person. And I, I rephrased it like doing something special and being a musician or do something with music.

3:18 So I've never talked with people that did something special or with musicians, only the combination of and that's a bit the speed spot, what the ampersand also means. So that's so nice to share to, to share together. I want to dig into your book The Power of Music Thinking and the Jam cards that you created. You mentioned that you are particularly proud of not only writing the book, but also designing it. From the graphics to the photo shoot to the glossary to the playlist. What have you heard from people who have read the book about your hypothesis? I have to say that at the beginning was, let's say a framework, I call it design, the dynamic strategies framework of music thinking.

4:09 And it was like, it's a graphic and it was the visualization of how I thought just to put it that way. And by the way, you can download it from the website and do to see what it is. And this was actually my start. And then I thought, OK, what can I do with music thinking? And I started with the jam cards because I never thought about writing a book in the beginning. And then the jam cards are, let's say 38 rigor cards with a Spotify code that you can scan with a, with a keyword, with a, with a quote from a musician and an an interesting question that you can use for an ideation or for an onboarding ritual. And I thought, OK, that's it.

4:58 And the publisher told me, OK, but it's some kind of game. So you have to invent or give some kind of instruction. And in the beginning I didn't want to do this because I thought no people can do whatever they want to do. So it's not the interesting part that you understand what I thought about when making it. It's more like what it does with you at the at the very end. I did that and, and in, in that sense, yeah, the gem cards get out and I worked together with the with the company, with the corporation. And there was the question that when we were doing workshops, coachings and interactions that people told me, Christophe, can't you write it down because we don't always want to ask you.

5:47 And that it was the start. Like, OK, now I try writing everything down and because I'm also a designer, hands on a self-taught designer for me, it was logical from that framework that I just mentioned that also went into the gem cards to write the book around it. So it was actually natural. And just later when, when, when I talk with people or, or when, when people were talking about the book and they're like the book. And then they, some, some people are asking from, oh, who did the graphics? And that looks so good. So who did the No, I, I, I did the book. So I wrote the book.

6:30 But but the that was interesting. So it's not just about writing. It's about making everything. And in, let's say in, in the way of the ampersand, I'm really more an Ant person of things. So I, I never think in these silos. This is writing and this is this is drawing or, or designing for me. It's actually the same. And you know, so that's that's something that when people hear this, that they then look in a different way to the book. So that that means I didn't only make every decision by myself, but I also made it.

7:11 And that's something that's hands on, that's bitten my character also to to do it by yourself. However, I worked as creative director and I'm pretty good. Also to let loose within that time. It was like, yeah, even it, it was in the in Corona time. So it was also very easy to do it. And fun fact, I delivered the complete, not manuscript, the complete printable PDF of a desktop published PDF two weeks before the deadline. And the publishers asked me, oh, what is this? Oh, it's ready say, but how that doesn't happen two weeks before the deadline.

7:56 And I told, you know, I have everything under control. I do it. I don't have to wait for other people. OK, There was an editor and, and spell checking and then the English checking. So I, I had that too. But at the very end you make the book and just when you make it and when you hold it in your hand and you see it in the bookstore and it's published worldwide, you just need the ISBN number or can buy it via Amazon. Then you realise from wow, now all that thinking is in that little, yeah, in that little book. And that's something I don't use the word proud so but but then I read it was really happy to to have it. So like, well, OK, cool.

8:40 That's that's it. Yeah, it's your creation. It's your gift to the world. And you talked about this a little bit. You, you're a designer and you are a joiner by trade. So this is an area that I had to look up. I didn't know what that was. Really. And Google told me that a joiner is an artisan and tradesperson who builds things by joining pieces of wood. And I thought, OK, this all makes sense. I mean, it sounds like actually the creation of your book was a lot of those skills. So how does your experience as a joiner affect how you show up as a consultant, podcaster, musician, author?

9:30 The the joiner actually it's a a furniture maker, so that's my family. So I'm the I, I did my apprenticeship. So I, I learned the craft in, in, in our own workshop, which the, my grand grandfather started the company. I think it was 1885. My grandfather and my grandfather to my father. My father made it big in the 60s and I was the Crown Prince because I was from for kids. I was the one who who who really learned the craft. And the interesting part is was not only about crafting something like you do something later, some people have to use it.

10:14 The fun fact is I also did lunch at the family table. But then you have to understand that's a company. So on the one side, the, the the founder or my grandfather, you know, all the, the the history and, and, and and the everything, my father, the innovator and the the entrepreneur Vizavi, my mother, you know, like it like it is in the family business. She was doing HR and the finance and so and and I learned to see an organization from the inside and and funny was because I also worked in the organization and and my best friends were from the union, which normally with the boss are not. Let's say on speaking terms.

11:00 I could understand that every perspective has its own right. And I tried to to make later in everything that I did, I see things from different perspectives and then try to and see connections that others don't, others don't see. And I think that's a bit rooted in my upbringing. And so in, in that sense, sometimes it took me many years to understand the, the, the word joiner itself because I'm not English native. But when I understood that the joiner is the woodworker bringing things together. And that join also is someone who can join something or join people that was from you and thought, OK, what you do in one words. OK, I know one.

11:46 It's a joiner. Yeah, it's descriptive of so much of what you do. Let's talk about you as a musician. So you've played saxophone with the same people for the last 40 years in your group, Rahm. Music for saxophones, which means spatial music for saxophones. And you say you like to play in big buildings and rooms with lots of reverberation and echo. You all have performed in Russia, Iceland, France, Germany and other countries. We'll hear an excerpt from one of your trios, and in this one you come together every month, record without any instructions, and then later decide if you put it on the album. This one you did.

12:35 It's called W from Improvisations.

13:33 None. What draws you to do improv in spatially interesting spaces? I already played saxophone and I heard that they're doing this in, in, in different, yeah, different venues. And the interesting part is it's free improv. So you start and you play and you don't know if you play the 10 people, by the way, if you all 10 play together or if one is playing a solo and the other is joint. It's always an extreme, an experiment. And, and it's, it's also not only about harmony, it's also about disharmony or finding out what resonates and then literally something in that space, for example, in a church or in a water tank or in a gas tank. And and that's are often in an in an architecture that for example, we we played in a in a swimming pool. I saw that one.

14:59 So there were 200 people watching and we played and the last day when the swimming pool was still a swimming pool and the next day they let the water out and it was a part of a new building. So we're really looking for interesting acoustics. And The funny thing for the the visitors, they often come from the venue and they don't know what we're playing and we're not playing popular hits or songs or anything else. It's just like it's an experiment and it also has to do with how people listen and how they listen to an echo or to the delay. And if you're in a water tank, for example, in a cistern, the delay is 50 seconds. So you can imagine it's quite some noise as well. And the interesting part is the process. And that's also linked to to my work. Everything is a process.

15:55 Some someone is starting the process, then the process goes on it. It even feels like a system because you can't stop other people. It's also interesting when you play improvised music with 10 people, you can't really lead them. You can. You just offer something that some say, oh, that's good. I want to amplify it or want to do something that supports it in some way. But if you want to really change, the best thing is to shut up. And that's something where I because I'm so busy with analogies between music and everything music and and our business.

16:38 Sometimes it helps if you also for as a leader to try to understand what's going on and not giving too much new impulses and that might change the music maybe more than trying to sound harder than everyone in the room. Let's take a short break to reflect on this question. Where in your life do you think you could listen more? Are you in Ampersand looking for community inspiration and resources? Come join us in the cohort where we help you grow and scale your creative and professional aspirations. If you're looking for more dedicated support, ioffer executive coaching for business leaders, people managers, creatives, and of course, Ampersands. Find out more about the cohort and one-on-one coaching at jessica1.com.

17:39 Now back to the show. What do you think this type of experimentation and improvisation gives to you personally as you move about your various workspaces and things that you know you're leading? The beginner's mindset and not saying from OK, now I'm playing solo this completely different then you have completely different kind of concentration then that you listen to the others And if you're the first to play, what does it do with the others or if someone else plays? So that's an an an an very, very interesting, interesting 1.

18:23 And it gives for me also the not knowing. So you know, if you have a career, if you, if you worked in different situations and different roles. I always like it, the not knowing. And today I was teaching at the university in of applied science in Utrecht. And I also talked with with the students and I explained them that I love it if I'm not right, because then I can learn something if I, if I always get confirmation from yeah, yeah, you're right. Oh yeah, you're doing this good, blah, blah, blah. So but it's the other way around.

19:03 If I say, oh, hang on, I thought it was like this and now it's that. And, and actually I find it very joyful to to to be in that situation because it does something with me. And yeah, it keeps me away from the autopilot to always be the one in the room that thinks he's the smartest. Yeah, You shared a pivotal moment when essentially you discovered your ampersand. So this was back in 1997 at the Opera Royale in Versailles when you interviewed conductor Daniel Behrenboim.

19:43 So at the time, you were pioneering Internet edutainment, and he was, of course, the maestro. How How did that realization hit you that digital culture and music thinking could live hand in hand for your career? Was it all at once? Was it? Bit by bit. The real realisation is is a bit later. So you you have moments because you're it was also some kind of production. It was the Europe concert of the Berlin for Philharmonic. And that's in every 1st May in a different European city. So that's their setting and that the time 1997 it was in Paris.

20:25 So in in opera and Jazai and Daniel Bond boy was the the played the piano and also conducted from the piano. So Baroque. It was a Mozart piece and I was working in a film production company that had the film rights and it was a live broadcasting all over the world. So it was 7:00 in Japan. It was 11:00 in the morning in Paris. If I if I, if I get it right. And the interesting part was that's really was pioneering time. So 1997 before social, before any any other big thing, it was just the Internet.

21:11 And if you didn't know where to go, you, you didn't see it. And in that time, because we, we did the, the live broadcasting, we also could put the URL in, in, in the live broadcast. So people who saw the URL went to the Internet. And in Japan, the most people were online at that time and the whole server was not reachable because too many people tried. So that was so, so many learnings. Now we would laugh about it. But it's also really, yeah, it's really quite some time ago. And the, the Internet or the interview was also, I, I taped it because I didn't trust everything because we had to go to go online with the modem.

22:05 And I think we had 20M of fax cable because my colleagues, they had a, they had a fax machine. So I don't know if, if people still know what a fax machine is, but that's really old, old stuff. But we were, we were the new ones. And we could use the same line just to, to get online. But because I thought, OK, if something goes miss, yeah, some, something goes wrong, I thought I tape it and, and a few episodes ago I thought about, wow, that's this. It was the first online interview also for Daniel Bottom 1. So he was pretty much interested in, in, in everything and how it works.

22:52 And so, and I had everything on tape and I, I made a podcast episode out of it from the old sound fragments and yeah, and, and, and, and then in retrospect, I realized, OK, that was also that kind of music thinking. So it's that music and something else and go to get that you can learn from music to also do digital, whatever it is and also the other way around. So these, these links, these combinations, that's something that, but years later, I, I never called it music thinking in, in, in that time.

23:33 I think I climbed the music, the, the term music thinking in 2010 or when I was looking for the, the right URL and I thought, hey, wow, I'm the first one. So that's why I have the.com and also the Twitter handles and everything. Amazing. Yeah, you were way ahead of your time. And it's, I think it's remarkable how also you planted those seeds in the late 90s and then they kind of had to just be there brewing for the right the right time, the right moment. What ties together all of your work? Now the music, that's the obvious, but I think it's a bit of curiosity. So and and I think that goes also together with the ampersand.

24:21 I see something I, I see if it resonates with me and if it resonates with me, I do it and often I don't stop. So then, then you at a certain moment. So I'm, I learned that I don't normally, I don't say that I'm a designer because I, I didn't go to design school. And later in my career I learned that in one agency, I was the only one in the agency, but I was the creative director interactive. I was the only one who was not who didn't learn design. But in my case it was. I just did it. So I was doing things that you later just could learn. And I think that's something to, I'm thinking much more in doing things.

25:09 Maybe that's all joiner and doing, yeah, just creating something. And if you do it, then you see I can also do this and I also can do that. And sometimes you bring it together. So for me, it's like a curiosity. And that brings me from I produce Cd-roms in the 90s, so with Joe Cocker, with the Berlin Philharmonic's and with Cameron Macintosh, Les Miserables. So this were entertainment, we called it in that time and the CD was everything. So like we talked today, AI and all steps in between until to the Internet and everything, all these developments is something that you. Yeah, that that I was a part of it and and some things you like and some things you you don't do. So it's it's like an evolving thing. So long answer to your short question, I think it's a kind of being now maybe it's not curiosity and maybe being interested.

26:15 I'm interested in different things and then you want to know. I love it, yeah. On a practical level, how do you think about all of your projects across many worlds in terms of your own time and energy? I don't really make a big difference between my private life and my work life because I like what I do and I do what I like. And I think that makes yeah, that's, that's in that sense, a natural. And then you could be on a Saturday and say, OK, ma, I'll take it low today. And then you find something in the newspaper or on on social, something that's interesting. And then you go back to your desk and then you start something. And but it's also could be that you sit, that I sit on my work table and I don't know what to do. And then I and I love, love it when it's boring, when nothing happens.

27:10 So it's, I think that's a bit the the beginner's mind, be open for what comes and goes and go for the moment. I think that's the yeah. And maybe that's what an improviser does. I think the contextual intelligence is something that interests me extremely. So like where you are to see all the context, help people also to see the context and to connect them together. And even either is this is a workshop or a strategy tried project or a branding project where to understand that branding is not just your logo, but also the way how you pick up the phone so that everything is connected and that it's branding. If someone, yeah, that maybe is not close to the marketing department does something and people experience it as a brand. So that contextual thing interests me very much. And that goes back to joining and improvising and making the most of what's, what's possible and what's maybe close to possible, because then you adopt, then you see the, the, the fringes of or, or the limits of yeah, of what you thought is at play.

28:31 Yeah, one goal we have with this podcast is to all together Co create the Ampersand Manifesto principles for leading a multi passionate life. What are some principles that you live by? I think there's one principle and that's a bit connected with the with the starting with doing new things. I'm also good in finishing things. So it's not just the starting, it's just take it's, you know, take yourself on one way, very serious, but do it in a playful way. And I think that that could go into manifesto in the sense from yeah, take yourself serious and and with a smile.

29:18 I love that Christophe. It's been wonderful talking with you folks. You can check out Christophe's work at musicthink.ing.com. We'll link to this in the show notes. Thank you, Jessica, it was a pleasure. I had a chance to listen back on my interview with Christophe, and I want to share a few key takeaways. One, I went into this conversation thinking that we'd talk a lot about music and innovation, and we did. And I'm also marveling at just how many areas we touched upon design, furniture making, family dynamics, organizational behavior, Zen Buddhism, improvisation, and more. Kristoff really leads his life as an ampersand and is able to see the connections across a broad array of disciplines and ideas. 2 When Christophe brought up his enjoyment about being proven wrong, I was reminded of Adam Grant's book Think Again, where he argues that changing your mind is a sign of intellectual growth, not weakness. Grant encourages adopting a scientist mindset to actively challenge your own assumptions, and Christophe also brought this up to always be experimenting.

30:42 It's clear that he values the process of learning over being right. Three, I really liked Christophe's advice of take yourself serious with a smile. We've talked a lot about seriousness and play on this show, and it's a balance. We need to take ourselves seriously as artists and creatives and to know that the work we do is important and it matters, and at the same time we need play and levity to access creativity and to lift both our spirits and those of everyone around us.

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