Christof Zürn: Using Music Thinking to Orchestrate Innovation

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Every perspective has its own
right and everything that I did,

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I see things from different
perspectives and see connections

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that others don't see.
And I think that's a bit rooted

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in my upbringing.
It took me many years to

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understand the the word joiner
itself.

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But when I understood that
joiner is the woodworker

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bringing things together, and
that joiner also is someone who

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can join something or join
people that was from you, I

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thought, OK, what you do in one
words, OK, I know one.

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It's a joiner.
I'm delighted to talk today with

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Christophe Tune, a strategy
facilitator and creative

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companion who uses the dynamics
of music to help leaders

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orchestrate innovation and turn
complexity into clarity.

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A joiner by trade with an MA in
Musicology, he combines the

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precision of craftsmanship with
the fluidity of strategic

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thinking to unlock momentum in
teams.

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In the 90s, he pioneered digital
music interaction, interviewing

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legends like Daniel Berenboim
and B.B.

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King.
Today, he channels that diverse

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experience into guiding
leadership programs and

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workshops for global clients.
Alongside his consulting

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practice, he lectures in
Creative Business at Utrecht

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University of Applied Sciences,
and he performs with the

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improvising collective Rao
Muzique fur Saxophone, as well

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as with other ensembles.
He is the author of the book The

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Power of Music Thinking and host
of the podcast of the same name.

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Christoph, Welcome to the show.
Thank you very much, Jessica.

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Nice to be here.
It's wonderful to be in this

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type of setting with you again.
We met last year when you

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invited me on your podcast The
Power of Music Thinking.

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Your podcast curates fascinating
conversations that reveal

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patterns and analogies of sound
and music for other uses.

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You've talked about AI to soil,
eco acoustics, Sonic

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investigation and marketing as
you and I talked about.

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What is your goal with your
podcast?

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Frankly speaking, I don't
really.

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I didn't really have a goal in
the beginning.

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It started, I was writing the
book and I gave the book to some

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friends to read and give me
feedback.

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And then something happened that
I was invited on the podcast

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like this to talk about
thinking.

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And after listening this back, I
thought, hey, wow, I'm much

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easier in talking than writing.
So I put the site for a moment

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and thought you can start my
podcast of, of, of their own.

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But what kind of podcast should
it be?

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And then I thought, I only want
to have one kind of a person.

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And I, I rephrased it like doing
something special and being a

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musician or do something with
music.

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So I've never talked with people
that did something special or

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with musicians, only the
combination of and that's a bit

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the speed spot, what the
ampersand also means.

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So that's so nice to share to,
to share together.

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I want to dig into your book The
Power of Music Thinking and the

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Jam cards that you created.
You mentioned that you are

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particularly proud of not only
writing the book, but also

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designing it.
From the graphics to the photo

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shoot to the glossary to the
playlist.

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What have you heard from people
who have read the book about

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your hypothesis?
I have to say that at the

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beginning was, let's say a
framework, I call it design, the

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dynamic strategies framework of
music thinking.

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And it was like, it's a graphic
and it was the visualization of

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how I thought just to put it
that way.

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And by the way, you can download
it from the website and do to

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see what it is.
And this was actually my start.

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And then I thought, OK, what can
I do with music thinking?

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And I started with the jam cards
because I never thought about

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writing a book in the beginning.
And then the jam cards are,

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let's say 38 rigor cards with a
Spotify code that you can scan

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with a, with a keyword, with a,
with a quote from a musician and

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an an interesting question that
you can use for an ideation or

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for an onboarding ritual.
And I thought, OK, that's it.

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And the publisher told me, OK,
but it's some kind of game.

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So you have to invent or give
some kind of instruction.

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And in the beginning I didn't
want to do this because I

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thought no people can do
whatever they want to do.

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So it's not the interesting part
that you understand what I

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thought about when making it.
It's more like what it does with

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you at the at the very end.
I did that and, and in, in that

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sense, yeah, the gem cards get
out and I worked together with

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the with the company, with the
corporation.

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And there was the question that
when we were doing workshops,

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coachings and interactions that
people told me, Christophe,

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can't you write it down because
we don't always want to ask you.

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And that it was the start.
Like, OK, now I try writing

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everything down and because I'm
also a designer, hands on a

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self-taught designer for me, it
was logical from that framework

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that I just mentioned that also
went into the gem cards to write

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the book around it.
So it was actually natural.

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And just later when, when, when
I talk with people or, or when,

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when people were talking about
the book and they're like the

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book.
And then they, some, some people

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are asking from, oh, who did the
graphics?

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And that looks so good.
So who did the No, I, I, I did

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the book.
So I wrote the book.

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But but the that was
interesting.

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So it's not just about writing.
It's about making everything.

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And in, let's say in, in the way
of the ampersand, I'm really

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more an Ant person of things.
So I, I never think in these

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silos.
This is writing and this is this

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is drawing or, or designing for
me.

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It's actually the same.
And you know, so that's that's

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something that when people hear
this, that they then look in a

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different way to the book.
So that that means I didn't only

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make every decision by myself,
but I also made it.

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And that's something that's
hands on, that's bitten my

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character also to to do it by
yourself.

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However, I worked as creative
director and I'm pretty good.

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Also to let loose within that
time.

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It was like, yeah, even it, it
was in the in Corona time.

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So it was also very easy to do
it.

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And fun fact, I delivered the
complete, not manuscript, the

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complete printable PDF of a
desktop published PDF two weeks

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before the deadline.
And the publishers asked me, oh,

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what is this?
Oh, it's ready say, but how that

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doesn't happen two weeks before
the deadline.

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And I told, you know, I have
everything under control.

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I do it.
I don't have to wait for other

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people.
OK, There was an editor and, and

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spell checking and then the
English checking.

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So I, I had that too.
But at the very end you make the

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book and just when you make it
and when you hold it in your

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hand and you see it in the
bookstore and it's published

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worldwide, you just need the
ISBN number or can buy it via

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Amazon.
Then you realise from wow, now

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all that thinking is in that
little, yeah, in that little

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book.
And that's something I don't use

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the word proud so but but then I
read it was really happy to to

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have it.
So like, well, OK, cool.

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That's that's it.
Yeah, it's your creation.

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It's your gift to the world.
And you talked about this a

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little bit.
You, you're a designer and you

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are a joiner by trade.
So this is an area that I had to

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look up.
I didn't know what that was.

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Really.
And Google told me that a joiner

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is an artisan and tradesperson
who builds things by joining

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pieces of wood.
And I thought, OK, this all

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makes sense.
I mean, it sounds like actually

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the creation of your book was a
lot of those skills.

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So how does your experience as a
joiner affect how you show up as

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a consultant, podcaster,
musician, author?

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The the joiner actually it's a a
furniture maker, so that's my

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family.
So I'm the I, I did my

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apprenticeship.
So I, I learned the craft in,

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in, in our own workshop, which
the, my grand grandfather

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started the company.
I think it was 1885.

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My grandfather and my
grandfather to my father.

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My father made it big in the 60s
and I was the Crown Prince

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because I was from for kids.
I was the one who who who really

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learned the craft.
And the interesting part is was

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not only about crafting
something like you do something

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later, some people have to use
it.

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The fun fact is I also did lunch
at the family table.

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But then you have to understand
that's a company.

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So on the one side, the, the the
founder or my grandfather, you

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know, all the, the the history
and, and, and and the

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everything, my father, the
innovator and the the

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entrepreneur Vizavi, my mother,
you know, like it like it is in

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the family business.
She was doing HR and the finance

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and so and and I learned to see
an organization from the inside

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and and funny was because I also
worked in the organization and

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and my best friends were from
the union, which normally with

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the boss are not.
Let's say on speaking terms.

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I could understand that every
perspective has its own right.

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And I tried to to make later in
everything that I did, I see

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things from different
perspectives and then try to and

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see connections that others
don't, others don't see.

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And I think that's a bit rooted
in my upbringing.

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And so in, in that sense,
sometimes it took me many years

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to understand the, the, the word
joiner itself because I'm not

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English native.
But when I understood that the

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joiner is the woodworker
bringing things together.

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And that join also is someone
who can join something or join

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people that was from you and
thought, OK, what you do in one

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words.
OK, I know one.

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It's a joiner.
Yeah, it's descriptive of so

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much of what you do.
Let's talk about you as a

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musician.
So you've played saxophone with

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the same people for the last 40
years in your group, Rahm.

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Music for saxophones, which
means spatial music for

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saxophones.
And you say you like to play in

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big buildings and rooms with
lots of reverberation and echo.

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You all have performed in
Russia, Iceland, France, Germany

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and other countries.
We'll hear an excerpt from one

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of your trios, and in this one
you come together every month,

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record without any instructions,
and then later decide if you put

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it on the album.
This one you did.

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It's called W from
Improvisations.

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None.
What draws you to do improv in

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spatially interesting spaces?
I already played saxophone and I

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heard that they're doing this
in, in, in different, yeah,

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different venues.
And the interesting part is it's

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free improv.
So you start and you play and

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you don't know if you play the
10 people, by the way, if you

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all 10 play together or if one
is playing a solo and the other

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is joint.
It's always an extreme, an

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experiment.
And, and it's, it's also not

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only about harmony, it's also
about disharmony or finding out

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what resonates and then
literally something in that

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space, for example, in a church
or in a water tank or in a gas

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tank.
And and that's are often in an

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in an architecture that for
example, we we played in a in a

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swimming pool.
I saw that one.

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So there were 200 people
watching and we played and the

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last day when the swimming pool
was still a swimming pool and

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the next day they let the water
out and it was a part of a new

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building.
So we're really looking for

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interesting acoustics.
And The funny thing for the the

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visitors, they often come from
the venue and they don't know

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what we're playing and we're not
playing popular hits or songs or

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anything else.
It's just like it's an

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experiment and it also has to do
with how people listen and how

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they listen to an echo or to the
delay.

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And if you're in a water tank,
for example, in a cistern, the

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delay is 50 seconds.
So you can imagine it's quite

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some noise as well.
And the interesting part is the

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process.
And that's also linked to to my

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work.
Everything is a process.

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Some someone is starting the
process, then the process goes

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on it.
It even feels like a system

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because you can't stop other
people.

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It's also interesting when you
play improvised music with 10

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people, you can't really lead
them.

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You can.
You just offer something that

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some say, oh, that's good.
I want to amplify it or want to

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do something that supports it in
some way.

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00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,560
But if you want to really
change, the best thing is to

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00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:31,280
shut up.
And that's something where I

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00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,520
because I'm so busy with
analogies between music and

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00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,000
everything music and and our
business.

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00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:44,120
Sometimes it helps if you also
for as a leader to try to

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00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,280
understand what's going on and
not giving too much new impulses

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00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:53,240
and that might change the music
maybe more than trying to sound

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00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,680
harder than everyone in the
room.

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00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,480
Let's take a short break to
reflect on this question.

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00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,359
Where in your life do you think
you could listen more?

237
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,079
Are you in Ampersand looking for
community inspiration and

238
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:18,520
resources?
Come join us in the cohort where

239
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,599
we help you grow and scale your
creative and professional

240
00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:25,079
aspirations.
If you're looking for more

241
00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:28,680
dedicated support, ioffer
executive coaching for business

242
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,320
leaders, people managers,
creatives, and of course,

243
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,440
Ampersands.
Find out more about the cohort

244
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,600
and one-on-one coaching at
jessica1.com.

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00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:47,280
Now back to the show.
What do you think this type of

246
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,760
experimentation and
improvisation gives to you

247
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:56,680
personally as you move about
your various workspaces and

248
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,880
things that you know you're
leading?

249
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,000
The beginner's mindset and not
saying from OK, now I'm playing

250
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,640
solo this completely different
then you have completely

251
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,360
different kind of concentration
then that you listen to the

252
00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:16,080
others And if you're the first
to play, what does it do with

253
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,160
the others or if someone else
plays?

254
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:23,000
So that's an an an an very, very
interesting, interesting 1.

255
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,320
And it gives for me also the not
knowing.

256
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,000
So you know, if you have a
career, if you, if you worked in

257
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,880
different situations and
different roles.

258
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,520
I always like it, the not
knowing.

259
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:44,640
And today I was teaching at the
university in of applied science

260
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,720
in Utrecht.
And I also talked with with the

261
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,040
students and I explained them
that I love it if I'm not right,

262
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,080
because then I can learn
something if I, if I always get

263
00:18:58,080 --> 00:18:59,960
confirmation from yeah, yeah,
you're right.

264
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,480
Oh yeah, you're doing this good,
blah, blah, blah.

265
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,400
So but it's the other way
around.

266
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,760
If I say, oh, hang on, I thought
it was like this and now it's

267
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,360
that.
And, and actually I find it very

268
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:14,920
joyful to to to be in that
situation because it does

269
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,640
something with me.
And yeah, it keeps me away from

270
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:23,640
the autopilot to always be the
one in the room that thinks he's

271
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:28,360
the smartest.
Yeah, You shared a pivotal

272
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:34,040
moment when essentially you
discovered your ampersand.

273
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:39,560
So this was back in 1997 at the
Opera Royale in Versailles when

274
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,320
you interviewed conductor Daniel
Behrenboim.

275
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,880
So at the time, you were
pioneering Internet edutainment,

276
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:49,960
and he was, of course, the
maestro.

277
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:56,640
How How did that realization hit
you that digital culture and

278
00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,840
music thinking could live hand
in hand for your career?

279
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,160
Was it all at once?
Was it?

280
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,360
Bit by bit.
The real realisation is is a bit

281
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:09,720
later.
So you you have moments because

282
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,520
you're it was also some kind of
production.

283
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,120
It was the Europe concert of the
Berlin for Philharmonic.

284
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:20,160
And that's in every 1st May in a
different European city.

285
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:25,680
So that's their setting and that
the time 1997 it was in Paris.

286
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:30,600
So in in opera and Jazai and
Daniel Bond boy was the the

287
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,160
played the piano and also
conducted from the piano.

288
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:39,040
So Baroque.
It was a Mozart piece and I was

289
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,600
working in a film production
company that had the film rights

290
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,320
and it was a live broadcasting
all over the world.

291
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:55,760
So it was 7:00 in Japan.
It was 11:00 in the morning in

292
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,720
Paris.
If I if I, if I get it right.

293
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,560
And the interesting part was
that's really was pioneering

294
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:07,720
time.
So 1997 before social, before

295
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,280
any any other big thing, it was
just the Internet.

296
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,200
And if you didn't know where to
go, you, you didn't see it.

297
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:20,520
And in that time, because we, we
did the, the live broadcasting,

298
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:28,840
we also could put the URL in,
in, in the live broadcast.

299
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,080
So people who saw the URL went
to the Internet.

300
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:38,840
And in Japan, the most people
were online at that time and the

301
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:43,040
whole server was not reachable
because too many people tried.

302
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,000
So that was so, so many
learnings.

303
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,800
Now we would laugh about it.
But it's also really, yeah, it's

304
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,520
really quite some time ago.
And the, the Internet or the

305
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,400
interview was also, I, I taped
it because I didn't trust

306
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,880
everything because we had to go
to go online with the modem.

307
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:13,240
And I think we had 20M of fax
cable because my colleagues,

308
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,760
they had a, they had a fax
machine.

309
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,920
So I don't know if, if people
still know what a fax machine

310
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,360
is, but that's really old, old
stuff.

311
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:22,360
But we were, we were the new
ones.

312
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,680
And we could use the same line
just to, to get online.

313
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,480
But because I thought, OK, if
something goes miss, yeah, some,

314
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:39,040
something goes wrong, I thought
I tape it and, and a few

315
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,840
episodes ago I thought about,
wow, that's this.

316
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,760
It was the first online
interview also for Daniel Bottom

317
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,480
1.
So he was pretty much interested

318
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,640
in, in, in everything and how it
works.

319
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,400
And so, and I had everything on
tape and I, I made a podcast

320
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:04,680
episode out of it from the old
sound fragments and yeah, and,

321
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:09,320
and, and, and then in
retrospect, I realized, OK, that

322
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,240
was also that kind of music
thinking.

323
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:16,600
So it's that music and something
else and go to get that you can

324
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:22,360
learn from music to also do
digital, whatever it is and also

325
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:25,920
the other way around.
So these, these links, these

326
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,400
combinations, that's something
that, but years later, I, I

327
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,320
never called it music thinking
in, in, in that time.

328
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,080
I think I climbed the music,
the, the term music thinking in

329
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,640
2010 or when I was looking for
the, the right URL and I

330
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,960
thought, hey, wow, I'm the first
one.

331
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,280
So that's why I have the.com and
also the Twitter handles and

332
00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:49,280
everything.
Amazing.

333
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,840
Yeah, you were way ahead of your
time.

334
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,200
And it's, I think it's
remarkable how also you planted

335
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:02,400
those seeds in the late 90s and
then they kind of had to just be

336
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,840
there brewing for the right the
right time, the right moment.

337
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,440
What ties together all of your
work?

338
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,280
Now the music, that's the
obvious, but I think it's a bit

339
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,320
of curiosity.
So and and I think that goes

340
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,920
also together with the
ampersand.

341
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,080
I see something I, I see if it
resonates with me and if it

342
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,280
resonates with me, I do it and
often I don't stop.

343
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:34,000
So then, then you at a certain
moment.

344
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,800
So I'm, I learned that I don't
normally, I don't say that I'm a

345
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,120
designer because I, I didn't go
to design school.

346
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:47,160
And later in my career I learned
that in one agency, I was the

347
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,360
only one in the agency, but I
was the creative director

348
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,520
interactive.
I was the only one who was not

349
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,280
who didn't learn design.
But in my case it was.

350
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,800
I just did it.
So I was doing things that you

351
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,680
later just could learn.
And I think that's something to,

352
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,240
I'm thinking much more in doing
things.

353
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,600
Maybe that's all joiner and
doing, yeah, just creating

354
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,000
something.
And if you do it, then you see I

355
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,600
can also do this and I also can
do that.

356
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,200
And sometimes you bring it
together.

357
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,000
So for me, it's like a
curiosity.

358
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:30,720
And that brings me from I
produce Cd-roms in the 90s, so

359
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:36,720
with Joe Cocker, with the Berlin
Philharmonic's and with Cameron

360
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,400
Macintosh, Les Miserables.
So this were entertainment, we

361
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,600
called it in that time and the
CD was everything.

362
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:49,040
So like we talked today, AI and
all steps in between until to

363
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,840
the Internet and everything, all
these developments is something

364
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,320
that you.
Yeah, that that I was a part of

365
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,480
it and and some things you like
and some things you you don't

366
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,960
do.
So it's it's like an evolving

367
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,280
thing.
So long answer to your short

368
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,720
question, I think it's a kind of
being now maybe it's not

369
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,560
curiosity and maybe being
interested.

370
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,280
I'm interested in different
things and then you want to

371
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,960
know.
I love it, yeah.

372
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,280
On a practical level, how do you
think about all of your projects

373
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,440
across many worlds in terms of
your own time and energy?

374
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,920
I don't really make a big
difference between my private

375
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,920
life and my work life because I
like what I do and I do what I

376
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,240
like.
And I think that makes yeah,

377
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,640
that's, that's in that sense, a
natural.

378
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,960
And then you could be on a
Saturday and say, OK, ma, I'll

379
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,840
take it low today.
And then you find something in

380
00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:55,000
the newspaper or on on social,
something that's interesting.

381
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,240
And then you go back to your
desk and then you start

382
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,000
something.
And but it's also could be that

383
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:05,120
you sit, that I sit on my work
table and I don't know what to

384
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:08,080
do.
And then I and I love, love it

385
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,400
when it's boring, when nothing
happens.

386
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,840
So it's, I think that's a bit
the the beginner's mind, be open

387
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,680
for what comes and goes and go
for the moment.

388
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,520
I think that's the yeah.
And maybe that's what an

389
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:29,040
improviser does.
I think the contextual

390
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:32,560
intelligence is something that
interests me extremely.

391
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,840
So like where you are to see all
the context, help people also to

392
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,400
see the context and to connect
them together.

393
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,360
And even either is this is a
workshop or a strategy tried

394
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,840
project or a branding project
where to understand that

395
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,920
branding is not just your logo,
but also the way how you pick up

396
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,040
the phone so that everything is
connected and that it's

397
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,440
branding.
If someone, yeah, that maybe is

398
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,640
not close to the marketing
department does something and

399
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:08,120
people experience it as a brand.
So that contextual thing

400
00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:11,240
interests me very much.
And that goes back to joining

401
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,760
and improvising and making the
most of what's, what's possible

402
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:21,200
and what's maybe close to
possible, because then you

403
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,440
adopt, then you see the, the,
the fringes of or, or the limits

404
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,000
of yeah, of what you thought is
at play.

405
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:38,440
Yeah, one goal we have with this
podcast is to all together Co

406
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:43,000
create the Ampersand Manifesto
principles for leading a multi

407
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,120
passionate life.
What are some principles that

408
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,680
you live by?
I think there's one principle

409
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:55,160
and that's a bit connected with
the with the starting with doing

410
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,600
new things.
I'm also good in finishing

411
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,240
things.
So it's not just the starting,

412
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,640
it's just take it's, you know,
take yourself on one way, very

413
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,680
serious, but do it in a playful
way.

414
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,120
And I think that that could go
into manifesto in the sense from

415
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,720
yeah, take yourself serious and
and with a smile.

416
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,200
I love that Christophe.
It's been wonderful talking with

417
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,800
you folks.
You can check out Christophe's

418
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,040
work at musicthink.ing.com.
We'll link to this in the show

419
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,200
notes.
Thank you, Jessica, it was a

420
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:36,000
pleasure.
I had a chance to listen back on

421
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,040
my interview with Christophe,
and I want to share a few key

422
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,560
takeaways.
One, I went into this

423
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,960
conversation thinking that we'd
talk a lot about music and

424
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,920
innovation, and we did.
And I'm also marveling at just

425
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:56,480
how many areas we touched upon
design, furniture making, family

426
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,240
dynamics, organizational
behavior, Zen Buddhism,

427
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,600
improvisation, and more.
Kristoff really leads his life

428
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,600
as an ampersand and is able to
see the connections across a

429
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:16,240
broad array of disciplines and
ideas. 2 When Christophe brought

430
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,400
up his enjoyment about being
proven wrong, I was reminded of

431
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,680
Adam Grant's book Think Again,
where he argues that changing

432
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,040
your mind is a sign of
intellectual growth, not

433
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,080
weakness.
Grant encourages adopting a

434
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,920
scientist mindset to actively
challenge your own assumptions,

435
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,240
and Christophe also brought this
up to always be experimenting.

436
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,360
It's clear that he values the
process of learning over being

437
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,400
right.
Three, I really liked

438
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,360
Christophe's advice of take
yourself serious with a smile.

439
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,720
We've talked a lot about
seriousness and play on this

440
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,040
show, and it's a balance.
We need to take ourselves

441
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,840
seriously as artists and
creatives and to know that the

442
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:13,400
work we do is important and it
matters, and at the same time we

443
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:19,080
need play and levity to access
creativity and to lift both our

444
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,440
spirits and those of everyone
around us.

445
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,560
If you liked this show, share it
with your friends and fellow

446
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,760
Ampersands and make sure to hit
the follow button to be notified

447
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,320
when new episodes drop.
It would mean the world to us if

448
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,720
you took two minutes to rate and
review the show.

449
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,960
Just go to the main show page on
Apple Podcasts or Spotify and

450
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,320
look for the stars.