Karin K. Jensen: The Strength of Water, Dance, and AAPI Advocacy

0:06 I love this quote from John Quincy Adams, the 6th President of the United States, where he said I am a warrior or a soldier, so my son can be a merchant, so his son may be a poet. And I've thought the same about me, where I thought my mother was a waitress so I could be a professional, so my daughters can be anything they want to be. I'm excited to talk with Karen K Jensen, a local news writer for the Alameda Post and the author of The Strength of Water, an Asian American coming of age memoir which received a starred review from Kyrkis and appeared on the annual Kyrkis list of Top 100 Indie Books. She has written for Asian News and News Break, winning News Break editorial awards on the topics of Stop Asian Hate and AAPI Voices.

1:01 She is also a dance instructor at the Alameda Ballet Academy, choreographs liturgical dance for her church, and enjoys performing historical dances with the Period Events and Entertainments Recreation Society. Karen, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's so great to hear about your story and also read about some of the history in in your family. You grew up as the daughter of an Asian American mom. How did that shape what you thought your career and adult life could look like? Since college, I knew that I was in love with words and literature, but telling your blue collar immigrant parent that you want to be a writer is a little like saying you want to be a ballerina or an actress.

1:59 It's probably not going to happen. She worked so hard to provide an opportunity to me, so she wanted me to follow a sure path. I think of that scene in Monty Python's Holy Grail where the king is trying to impress upon his son his duty to the Kingdom. And the son keeps saying, but I just want to sing. I want to do musical theatre. And I think, I think my mother was kind of looking at me that way when I said I wanted to be a writer and, and she was in a panic. And so as something like a odd compromise between the two of us, my first career was pursuing A secondary interest in environmentalism.

2:50 I worked in environmental health and safety work. And then when I had my children, I had the opportunity to be a dance instructor because that was work I could do very close to home within walking distance. And finally, during the pandemic, when I couldn't teach dance and all this other work was shut down, I applied to be a writer for News Break, which was something I could do from home online. And so that is my incarnation. And I'm really happy that in the fall of my life, I'm finally getting to pursue something I've wanted to do for a really long time.

3:32 Yeah, let's dig into your mother's story a little bit. I had a chance to read the book and I, I was really blown away by what an incredible life she led. And there's there's a very kind of visceral scene where where she as a young woman is, is literally on her deathbed and gets gets saved through the kindness and kind of the the ideas and creativity from her sister. And but when you think about your mother's story, what was the process for you in writing this book and what were the learnings for you? Well, my mother had been telling me these stories since I was little.

4:25 Stories about growing up in a Chinese laundry in Detroit during the infancy of the automobile industry, and then later on the eve of and during the Sino Japanese war in China and then back to mid century California. And they felt like a mythology because they were so different from my vanilla middle class upbringing here in the San Francisco Bay Area. I grew up in a 2 bedroom house in Piedmont next to a mansion that was so large it extended from one block to the other so that I felt like Nick Carraway in The Great Gatsby. And I thought, how did our family go from that to this in a single generation when my mother had not even had a high school education?

5:24 And that's what I wanted to record and to understand how she had made that happen. And the title The Strength of Water comes from a Taoist saying. She would not have described herself as Taoist, but Taoism certainly infused her culture. The saying is water is fluid, soft, yielding, but water will wear away rock. What is soft is strong. And that so reminded me of my mother that she would just flow over or around or through. She didn't have sword strength. She wasn't aggressive, but she persisted and she believed, as she put it in fighting for your little slice of happiness in this world before you move on.

6:18 And so I found that so inspiring and I, I wanted to record it. It's, it's not like she's a celebrity or some other kind of person that you might ordinarily read a memoir about, but it's sort of Joy Luck Club meets Little House on the Prairie. It's this story of family and resilience and adaptability and survival, and so I that that's why I wanted to write it. And what was the process like and how long did the journey take to get to the final book? I extensively interviewed my mom, her siblings, my siblings and my dad.

7:06 And this actually started in the early 2000s as as a family history project. And I started by just blogging 1 chapter at a time to keep myself going. And then my kids came along and then my parents were getting elderly and needing help and just everything, life, career, children. I put the manuscript 90% done away in a drawer. And it wasn't until about 2018 that I I said, I have to finish this. It's so close. I finished writing it and then the pandemic hit and that's when I really said I have this great space of time with no employment.

7:55 I'm going to Polish this. I worked with a developmental editor who looked at the big picture of the story and helped me with that, and then I started to send it out. What did the publishing process look like? Oh, it was very circuitous. I, I, I did not have any background in this and someone happened to tell me about Twitter pitching events, which, if you're not familiar with it, you pick an event that's in your genre. I picked diverse voices. And over the course of one day, you can send out three tweets. So you have 280 characters to pitch your story. And if a publisher or an agent puts a heart on your tweet, that means they welcome you to send a more detailed pitch. So I got 2 hearts from small presses. I submitted my pitch to both.

8:56 They both made me offers, which was amazing. And almost a year later when we were when this publisher that I picked was about to publish, they went out of business due to pandemic stresses. I was so heartbroken that I didn't respond to the e-mail for three days, but then the real pitching began. The the more traditional writing dozens of query letters and sending them out, and I finally got a yes on number 42 from a small press in London. I thought that would be fine because the world is online like we are. But I came to realize that all of their marketing and was really in Europe, and I couldn't participate very well in what they were doing.

9:52 And in the meantime, I became aware of an author, Julia Park Tracy. She writes historical fiction, and I really like to work. And I started following her online and I happened to be sort of grousing to my editor, my publisher at the Alameda Post. I was going. I wish I had a publisher like Sybilene Press and have experiences like what Julia is having. And he said, why don't you reach out to her? I, I know her. She's a local author. She's really nice. And it's amazing what a little encouragement can do sometimes. Because I'm not sure I would have done that without him saying.

10:34 And then it was like, yeah, why don't I just write, You know, worst case, she's going to not write back to me. And she said, oh, sure, just submit your manuscript through our portal and we'll, we'll look at it. And then I heard back and she said, yeah, we'd love to republish this. And it has been like night and day. Because they're a California publisher. They have a lot of authors in the Bay Area. And so we support each other. I get to attend the book festivals here in California that the publisher attends. And there's a synergy where we exchange ideas and it's just been a much more wonderful experience. So yes, very circuitous.

11:21 Let's take a moment to reflect on this question. Who's someone that you admire or follow and what would encourage you to reach out to them? Are you an Ampersand? Looking for community inspiration and resources? Come join us in the cohort where we help you grow and scale your creative and professional aspirations. If you're looking for more dedicated support, ioffer executive coaching for business leaders, people managers, creatives, and of course, Ampersands. Find out more about the cohort and one-on-one coaching at jessica1.com. Now back to the show.

12:09 So your book came out in fall 2025. What has the reception looked like so far? I have really enjoyed particularly hearing from other immigrant or Asian American families and people who talk to me at book events and say that they find it not only relatable, but they have expressed their appreciation that my family was willing to share so much of their history. Especially the really hard stories that sometimes older people are not willing to talk about.

12:52 And I understand that because my in laws lived through Nazi occupied Denmark, but they were never willing to talk about it because it was such a dark memory. And I understand that. But at the same time, those memories, those stories are lost forever now because they they didn't want to talk about it. And so I am grateful that my family was so open with stories that weren't always flattering to our family. And I've appreciated people sharing that with me. And I have had some nice reviews, like you mentioned, the Kirkus Reviews named the book to a top 100 indie book of 2024. And yeah, just some very nice reception. I want to talk about your life as a dancer and you kind of referenced it earlier how being a ballerina wasn't totally accepted as a as a career path, but what has your journey looked like with dance?

14:04 Well, I don't teach dance at a high level, but I teach ballet to children at the Alameda Ballet Academy with which is such a joy. I started that when my eldest started taking pre ballet and at the time I was working full time in the city in my health and safety work and I take adult ballet. So the director asked, could you be an assistant to this class? Because the teacher is a little bit young and I think she could use help just lining up kids, taking kids to the bathroom, whatever. And I said, of course I would love to do that and be helping out in my daughter's class. And then this was a young woman and suddenly she fell in love and ran away to Seattle or something like that. And the director said, hey, could you take this class over? And I went, Oh no, no, I I already have a career. I just want to be a mom and relax. And she said, oh, OK.

15:04 And then a week later she goes, Are you sure? I said, well, OK, I'll help you out until the end of this semester. And then please try to look for somebody. And it's so funny because the amount of preparation I put into this class for four year olds, you would have thought I was performing at, you know, Carnegie Hall or something. I was so nervous. And then of course, they're just a joy and whatever I said, you know, let's skip, OK, let's do this, OK. They're just having a great time. And it's suddenly I kind of fell in love with with the process and just, I think sometimes people get intimidated to dance when they're older, but it at that age, they're just playful and unselfconscious and they're not worried about technique.

15:52 They're just dancing with joy. And so one class became two classes became three classes. And I started teaching a little bit older children. And then for a while, because there's a limit to how much you can teach ballet, It's only like children in the afternoon and Saturday morning. When my daughters were little and I wanted to quit my stressful career in San Francisco, I got a certificate to teach ballroom dancing. And so I did that for a while. Yes, 4 year olds are full of exuberant joy, and I imagine that the class isn't all about dance, but really how to be a human, how to be an artist. Yes, at that level it's a lot about how to be in a class and and also just to get yourself ready for class and how to leave class respectfully without making all this noise that's going to disrupt the studio next door and all those little manners type lessons.

16:57 You and I were connected through a mutual friend, Lauren Shapiro, whose debut indie film Still Life features your daughter in the lead role and you as the dance instructor. What was it like to be in that film and also to coach your daughter for the film? That was so special. Wow. Getting to be in someone's movie. And the part felt sort of made for me because I played the ballet instructor and then getting to coach my daughter was both a joy and a little bit frustrating. She's not, naturally, she has taken ballet, but she left ballet because she's more.

17:41 She liked to be a gymnast. That was what she eventually pursued. Ballet was a little too controlled and she really liked the adrenaline of gymnastics and the power moves and all of that. And so it was, you know, it was a little bit funny, just she was trying to to put her in the mindset of why do people enjoy this more meditative experience of being at the bar as opposed to the power experiences of of gymnastics? But it really was a special thing to be able to to coach her, to be in a movie and then to act with her. And I don't know if that will ever happen again, but it's a special memory.

18:29 Absolutely. What ties together your work as a writer, author, dancer and dance instructor? I think in both dance and writing, we are concerned with how we want the audience to feel or or what we want them to understand. My college age, Well, Monica, the the daughter you just mentioned, sometimes she asks me to review her essays. And my most common critique is that often her first page feels like clearing of the throat, like she's still brainstorming what she wants to say.

19:11 And finally, somewhere on page 2, I start to see the point that she's trying to make. And my advice is that's fine to go through that process, but then you need to just to cut that out and start with clearly expressing what is the theme or the thesis that you're trying to convey, because everything has to flow from that. And then you outline the main points to convince your reader. And once you have that thesis and outline, then the writing is relatively straightforward. And there's a similar process in choreography. You have to be clear about what you're trying to convey and how does each section of the story or each section of the dance support the story. Maybe in liturgical dancing, I'm trying to express the triumph of life over death.

20:04 That's the theme. And then the main points are that we're going through sorrow, and then discovery, and then fear, and then hope. And then I can consider what are the qualities of movement that. Express each of those emotions. So there are definitely parallels. And in both you consider rhythm and pacing and symbolism and energy and transitions. And I think that idea of success, having different meanings in different contexts is helpful, helpful for managing overwhelm. In other words, just because I say it right and dance doesn't mean I'm doing them equally all the time. I I think there's a tendency to want to be highly successful in everything that we pursue. But but there are seasons where you where your focus is much greater in one area than in others. And you can't focus with such intensity on everything all at once.

21:03 And I think being interested in in more than one thing doesn't just mean that you're easily distracted. It can be a strength, particularly when you start to make connections between two things that might seem disparate. I mean, writing and dance might seem like pretty different things, but I, I think they're complementary. 1 is the creative life of the body and the other is the creative life of the mind. So they're kind of a yin and Yang pursuits. Where do you find inspiration for writing or for choreography? Collaborating actually is really helpful and I say that as much to myself as to anybody because I think there's a tendency to want to guard our ideas. But for instance, IA couple of friends and me sometimes get together and just brainstorm humorous short stories. I One of the dance things that I would do is during the holiday season, I work at the San Francisco Dickens Fair. I work with a group called the Period Entertainments and Events, Recreation Society or Peers, and we both perform and teach period social dances.

22:27 And any of the participants at the Dickens Fair can contribute to the The London Bulletin, it's called, which is just this faux Victorian scandal sheet that visitors can read. And so we'll get together. We have this character called that my friend created called Winifred Withers. She's this serial. Yeah, she's this serial widow. And so we'll just have fun collaborating about how are we going to help her find her next husband and how is she going to off him without anybody knowing. And, and just all of these ideas are really funny and they don't all end up in the stories.

23:07 But together we put together this story and I, we put together a story that I think not any one of us could have put together, but together we, we come up with a sum that's greater than our individual efforts. I am taking a screen writing class right now through UCLA. I'd like to make a screenplay version of The Strength of Water that's a little fictionalized, and part of the class is that you have to read or have your fellow students act pages of your screenplay out loud, and hearing other people act out your words is enlightening. You hear where the dialogue doesn't land quite correctly and then you get their feedback on what they liked, what they didn't quite understand, what they thought should be amplified.

24:00 It is so helpful. Other than that, I would say time in nature is often inspiring because in front of being just free from screens and phones allows you to have a softer focus that allows ideas to percolate and help you make connections between different areas that are sometimes hard to see when you're in that sort of calcified focus in front of your computer. Yeah, it yeah. I think I love. That ideas, yeah.

24:40 One goal we have with this podcast is to Co create the Ampersand manifesto for leading a multi passionate life. What are some principles that you live by? You know. I think because I have had these multiple interests, I think I've sometimes thought that was kind of not the greatest thing. Like, like you have to be really focused in one area to achieve greatness. And recently, my husband and I went to Italy, and in Rome we went to the Galleria Borghese, where we went to see sculptures of the great Renaissance sculpture Gian Lorenzo Bernini.

25:21 I wasn't even familiar with him, but my husband is an artist, so he was really excited to see this. And I was so blown away. Throughout Italy, you see all these amazing sculptures and then you see Bernini's work and it's transcendent. And then you learn that he did these when he was 23 and 27, and that in enough is enough to be amazed by. But then you learn he was a painter, he was a sculpture, he did city planning and architecture, he designed decorative art. And obviously he was exceptional, a prodigy for the ages. But then you look at his education and he did not have formal academic education.

26:09 He started learning sculpture, sculpting when he was 6. And he seemed to have this life of being immersed at a practical level in different apprenticeships in areas that he showed interest or talent for. And I think, wow, what an amazing life to. Immerse. Fully and different passions and believe that you can be successful and achieve something in these different areas. So that's been that was a lesson to me to not think, oh, I'm just easily distracted or or I don't have focus.

26:51 It was like, no, the this, this is a strength, Karen. It's been wonderful talking with you folks. You can check out Karen Jensen's work at Karen K Jensen dot blog or on Instagram at Karen K Jensen and you can find her book, The Strength of Water anywhere you get your books. We'll link to these in the show notes. If you liked this show, share it with your friends and fellow ampersands and make sure to hit the follow button to be notified when new episodes drop. It would mean the world to us if you took two minutes to rate and review the show.

27:33 Just go to the main show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and look for the stars. I had a chance to listen back on my conversation with Karen, and I wanted to share a few key takeaways. 1 The seasons of life are the frame in which our work exists. Karen started. Her book in the early 2000s, more than 20 years ago and finished writing it in 2018 when the pandemic hit. The silver lining for her was that the quiet time allowed her to wrap up this book and get it out into the world. I found in my. Own life that when you acknowledge the season you're in instead of fighting against it, you can set more realistic goals and also find more contentment in whatever season you are in. 2 fighting for your little slice of happiness in this world. The core thesis in The Strength of Water is really this finding happiness.

28:42 My parents were immigrants from Taiwan to Canada. Different circumstances than Karen's mom, but still very much in the vein of finding a better life, more opportunity, and more possibility for future generations. Following in the. Steps of Karen's first quote. My grandmother was a nurse in the Chinese Civil War, so my mother could find her American dream so that I could tell these stories. On this podcast, Three answering the call. It was fascinating to hear about how Karen was asked to take over teaching the preschool dance class, really by necessity, and then she fell in love with it and took her dance instruction further.

29:35 The universe. Works in interesting ways. We can be initially resistant and maybe not see things that others might see in US, but opportunities tend to come around when the time is right, especially for the things that we love.