Karin K. Jensen: The Strength of Water, Dance, and AAPI Advocacy

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I love this quote from John
Quincy Adams, the 6th President

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of the United States, where he
said I am a warrior or a

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soldier, so my son can be a
merchant, so his son may be a

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poet.
And I've thought the same about

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me, where I thought my mother
was a waitress so I could be a

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professional, so my daughters
can be anything they want to be.

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I'm excited to talk with Karen K
Jensen, a local news writer for

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the Alameda Post and the author
of The Strength of Water, an

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Asian American coming of age
memoir which received a starred

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review from Kyrkis and appeared
on the annual Kyrkis list of Top

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100 Indie Books.
She has written for Asian News

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and News Break, winning News
Break editorial awards on the

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topics of Stop Asian Hate and
AAPI Voices.

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She is also a dance instructor
at the Alameda Ballet Academy,

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choreographs liturgical dance
for her church, and enjoys

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performing historical dances
with the Period Events and

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Entertainments Recreation
Society.

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Karen, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.

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It's so great to hear about your
story and also read about some

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of the history in in your
family.

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You grew up as the daughter of
an Asian American mom.

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How did that shape what you
thought your career and adult

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life could look like?
Since college, I knew that I was

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in love with words and
literature, but telling your

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blue collar immigrant parent
that you want to be a writer is

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a little like saying you want to
be a ballerina or an actress.

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It's probably not going to
happen.

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She worked so hard to provide an
opportunity to me, so she wanted

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me to follow a sure path.
I think of that scene in Monty

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Python's Holy Grail where the
king is trying to impress upon

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his son his duty to the Kingdom.
And the son keeps saying, but I

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just want to sing.
I want to do musical theatre.

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And I think, I think my mother
was kind of looking at me that

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way when I said I wanted to be a
writer and, and she was in a

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panic.
And so as something like a odd

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compromise between the two of
us, my first career was pursuing

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A secondary interest in
environmentalism.

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I worked in environmental health
and safety work.

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And then when I had my children,
I had the opportunity to be a

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dance instructor because that
was work I could do very close

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to home within walking distance.
And finally, during the

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pandemic, when I couldn't teach
dance and all this other work

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was shut down, I applied to be a
writer for News Break, which was

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something I could do from home
online.

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And so that is my incarnation.
And I'm really happy that in the

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fall of my life, I'm finally
getting to pursue something I've

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wanted to do for a really long
time.

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Yeah, let's dig into your
mother's story a little bit.

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I had a chance to read the book
and I, I was really blown away

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by what an incredible life she
led.

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And there's there's a very kind
of visceral scene where where

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she as a young woman is, is
literally on her deathbed and

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gets gets saved through the
kindness and kind of the the

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ideas and creativity from her
sister.

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And but when you think about
your mother's story, what was

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the process for you in writing
this book and what were the

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learnings for you?
Well, my mother had been telling

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me these stories since I was
little.

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Stories about growing up in a
Chinese laundry in Detroit

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during the infancy of the
automobile industry, and then

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later on the eve of and during
the Sino Japanese war in China

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and then back to mid century
California.

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And they felt like a mythology
because they were so different

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from my vanilla middle class
upbringing here in the San

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Francisco Bay Area.
I grew up in a 2 bedroom house

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in Piedmont next to a mansion
that was so large it extended

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from one block to the other so
that I felt like Nick Carraway

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in The Great Gatsby.
And I thought, how did our

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family go from that to this in a
single generation when my mother

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had not even had a high school
education?

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And that's what I wanted to
record and to understand how she

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had made that happen.
And the title The Strength of

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Water comes from a Taoist
saying.

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She would not have described
herself as Taoist, but Taoism

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certainly infused her culture.
The saying is water is fluid,

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soft, yielding, but water will
wear away rock.

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What is soft is strong.
And that so reminded me of my

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mother that she would just flow
over or around or through.

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She didn't have sword strength.
She wasn't aggressive, but she

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persisted and she believed, as
she put it in fighting for your

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little slice of happiness in
this world before you move on.

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And so I found that so inspiring
and I, I wanted to record it.

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It's, it's not like she's a
celebrity or some other kind of

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person that you might ordinarily
read a memoir about, but it's

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sort of Joy Luck Club meets
Little House on the Prairie.

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It's this story of family and
resilience and adaptability and

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survival, and so I that that's
why I wanted to write it.

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And what was the process like
and how long did the journey

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take to get to the final book?
I extensively interviewed my

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mom, her siblings, my siblings
and my dad.

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And this actually started in the
early 2000s as as a family

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history project.
And I started by just blogging 1

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chapter at a time to keep myself
going.

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And then my kids came along and
then my parents were getting

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elderly and needing help and
just everything, life, career,

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children.
I put the manuscript 90% done

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away in a drawer.
And it wasn't until about 2018

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that I I said, I have to finish
this.

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It's so close.
I finished writing it and then

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the pandemic hit and that's when
I really said I have this great

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space of time with no
employment.

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I'm going to Polish this.
I worked with a developmental

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editor who looked at the big
picture of the story and helped

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me with that, and then I started
to send it out.

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What did the publishing process
look like?

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Oh, it was very circuitous.
I, I, I did not have any

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background in this and someone
happened to tell me about

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Twitter pitching events, which,
if you're not familiar with it,

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you pick an event that's in your
genre.

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I picked diverse voices.
And over the course of one day,

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you can send out three tweets.
So you have 280 characters to

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pitch your story.
And if a publisher or an agent

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puts a heart on your tweet, that
means they welcome you to send a

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more detailed pitch.
So I got 2 hearts from small

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presses.
I submitted my pitch to both.

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They both made me offers, which
was amazing.

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And almost a year later when we
were when this publisher that I

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picked was about to publish,
they went out of business due to

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pandemic stresses.
I was so heartbroken that I

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didn't respond to the e-mail for
three days, but then the real

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pitching began.
The the more traditional writing

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dozens of query letters and
sending them out, and I finally

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got a yes on number 42 from a
small press in London.

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I thought that would be fine
because the world is online like

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we are.
But I came to realize that all

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of their marketing and was
really in Europe, and I couldn't

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participate very well in what
they were doing.

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And in the meantime, I became
aware of an author, Julia Park

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Tracy.
She writes historical fiction,

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and I really like to work.
And I started following her

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online and I happened to be sort
of grousing to my editor, my

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publisher at the Alameda Post.
I was going.

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I wish I had a publisher like
Sybilene Press and have

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experiences like what Julia is
having.

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And he said, why don't you reach
out to her?

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I, I know her.
She's a local author.

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She's really nice.
And it's amazing what a little

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encouragement can do sometimes.
Because I'm not sure I would

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have done that without him
saying.

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And then it was like, yeah, why
don't I just write, You know,

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worst case, she's going to not
write back to me.

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And she said, oh, sure, just
submit your manuscript through

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our portal and we'll, we'll look
at it.

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And then I heard back and she
said, yeah, we'd love to

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republish this.
And it has been like night and

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day.
Because they're a California

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publisher.
They have a lot of authors in

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the Bay Area.
And so we support each other.

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I get to attend the book
festivals here in California

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that the publisher attends.
And there's a synergy where we

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exchange ideas and it's just
been a much more wonderful

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experience.
So yes, very circuitous.

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Let's take a moment to reflect
on this question.

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Who's someone that you admire or
follow and what would encourage

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you to reach out to them?
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Find out more about the cohort
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jessica1.com.
Now back to the show.

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So your book came out in fall
2025.

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What has the reception looked
like so far?

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I have really enjoyed
particularly hearing from other

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immigrant or Asian American
families and people who talk to

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me at book events and say that
they find it not only relatable,

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but they have expressed their
appreciation that my family was

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willing to share so much of
their history.

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Especially the really hard
stories that sometimes older

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people are not willing to talk
about.

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And I understand that because my
in laws lived through Nazi

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occupied Denmark, but they were
never willing to talk about it

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because it was such a dark
memory.

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And I understand that.
But at the same time, those

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memories, those stories are lost
forever now because they they

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didn't want to talk about it.
And so I am grateful that my

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family was so open with stories
that weren't always flattering

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to our family.
And I've appreciated people

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sharing that with me.
And I have had some nice

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reviews, like you mentioned, the
Kirkus Reviews named the book to

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a top 100 indie book of 2024.
And yeah, just some very nice

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reception.
I want to talk about your life

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as a dancer and you kind of
referenced it earlier how being

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a ballerina wasn't totally
accepted as a as a career path,

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but what has your journey looked
like with dance?

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Well, I don't teach dance at a
high level, but I teach ballet

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to children at the Alameda
Ballet Academy with which is

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such a joy.
I started that when my eldest

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started taking pre ballet and at
the time I was working full time

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in the city in my health and
safety work and I take adult

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ballet.
So the director asked, could you

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be an assistant to this class?
Because the teacher is a little

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bit young and I think she could
use help just lining up kids,

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taking kids to the bathroom,
whatever.

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And I said, of course I would
love to do that and be helping

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out in my daughter's class.
And then this was a young woman

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and suddenly she fell in love
and ran away to Seattle or

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something like that.
And the director said, hey,

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could you take this class over?
And I went, Oh no, no, I I

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already have a career.
I just want to be a mom and

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relax.
And she said, oh, OK.

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And then a week later she goes,
Are you sure?

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I said, well, OK, I'll help you
out until the end of this

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semester.
And then please try to look for

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somebody.
And it's so funny because the

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amount of preparation I put into
this class for four year olds,

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you would have thought I was
performing at, you know,

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Carnegie Hall or something.
I was so nervous.

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And then of course, they're just
a joy and whatever I said, you

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know, let's skip, OK, let's do
this, OK.

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They're just having a great
time.

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And it's suddenly I kind of fell
in love with with the process

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and just, I think sometimes
people get intimidated to dance

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when they're older, but it at
that age, they're just playful

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and unselfconscious and they're
not worried about technique.

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They're just dancing with joy.
And so one class became two

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classes became three classes.
And I started teaching a little

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bit older children.
And then for a while, because

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there's a limit to how much you
can teach ballet, It's only like

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children in the afternoon and
Saturday morning.

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When my daughters were little
and I wanted to quit my

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stressful career in San
Francisco, I got a certificate

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to teach ballroom dancing.
And so I did that for a while.

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Yes, 4 year olds are full of
exuberant joy, and I imagine

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that the class isn't all about
dance, but really how to be a

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human, how to be an artist.
Yes, at that level it's a lot

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about how to be in a class and
and also just to get yourself

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ready for class and how to leave
class respectfully without

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making all this noise that's
going to disrupt the studio next

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door and all those little
manners type lessons.

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You and I were connected through
a mutual friend, Lauren Shapiro,

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whose debut indie film Still
Life features your daughter in

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the lead role and you as the
dance instructor.

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What was it like to be in that
film and also to coach your

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daughter for the film?
That was so special.

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Wow.
Getting to be in someone's

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movie.
And the part felt sort of made

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for me because I played the
ballet instructor and then

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getting to coach my daughter was
both a joy and a little bit

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frustrating.
She's not, naturally, she has

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taken ballet, but she left
ballet because she's more.

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She liked to be a gymnast.
That was what she eventually

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pursued.
Ballet was a little too

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controlled and she really liked
the adrenaline of gymnastics and

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the power moves and all of that.
And so it was, you know, it was

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a little bit funny, just she was
trying to to put her in the

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mindset of why do people enjoy
this more meditative experience

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of being at the bar as opposed
to the power experiences of of

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gymnastics?
But it really was a special

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thing to be able to to coach
her, to be in a movie and then

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to act with her.
And I don't know if that will

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ever happen again, but it's a
special memory.

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Absolutely.
What ties together your work as

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a writer, author, dancer and
dance instructor?

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I think in both dance and
writing, we are concerned with

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how we want the audience to feel
or or what we want them to

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understand.
My college age, Well, Monica,

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the the daughter you just
mentioned, sometimes she asks me

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to review her essays.
And my most common critique is

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that often her first page feels
like clearing of the throat,

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like she's still brainstorming
what she wants to say.

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And finally, somewhere on page
2, I start to see the point that

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she's trying to make.
And my advice is that's fine to

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go through that process, but
then you need to just to cut

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that out and start with clearly
expressing what is the theme or

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the thesis that you're trying to
convey, because everything has

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to flow from that.
And then you outline the main

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points to convince your reader.
And once you have that thesis

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and outline, then the writing is
relatively straightforward.

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And there's a similar process in
choreography.

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You have to be clear about what
you're trying to convey and how

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does each section of the story
or each section of the dance

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00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,880
support the story.
Maybe in liturgical dancing, I'm

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trying to express the triumph of
life over death.

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That's the theme.
And then the main points are

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that we're going through sorrow,
and then discovery, and then

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fear, and then hope.
And then I can consider what are

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the qualities of movement that.
Express each of those emotions.

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So there are definitely
parallels.

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And in both you consider rhythm
and pacing and symbolism and

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energy and transitions.
And I think that idea of

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success, having different
meanings in different contexts

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is helpful, helpful for managing
overwhelm.

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In other words, just because I
say it right and dance doesn't

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mean I'm doing them equally all
the time.

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I I think there's a tendency to
want to be highly successful in

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everything that we pursue.
But but there are seasons where

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00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,080
you where your focus is much
greater in one area than in

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00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,200
others.
And you can't focus with such

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00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,240
intensity on everything all at
once.

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And I think being interested in
in more than one thing doesn't

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just mean that you're easily
distracted.

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It can be a strength,
particularly when you start to

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make connections between two
things that might seem

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disparate.
I mean, writing and dance might

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seem like pretty different
things, but I, I think they're

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complementary. 1 is the creative
life of the body and the other

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is the creative life of the
mind.

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So they're kind of a yin and
Yang pursuits.

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Where do you find inspiration
for writing or for choreography?

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Collaborating actually is really
helpful and I say that as much

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to myself as to anybody because
I think there's a tendency to

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want to guard our ideas.
But for instance, IA couple of

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friends and me sometimes get
together and just brainstorm

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00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:09,560
humorous short stories.
I One of the dance things that I

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would do is during the holiday
season, I work at the San

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Francisco Dickens Fair.
I work with a group called the

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00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,520
Period Entertainments and
Events, Recreation Society or

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00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:26,440
Peers, and we both perform and
teach period social dances.

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And any of the participants at
the Dickens Fair can contribute

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00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,520
to the The London Bulletin, it's
called, which is just this faux

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00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,160
Victorian scandal sheet that
visitors can read.

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And so we'll get together.
We have this character called

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00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,120
that my friend created called
Winifred Withers.

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00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:50,680
She's this serial.
Yeah, she's this serial widow.

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00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,480
And so we'll just have fun
collaborating about how are we

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00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,760
going to help her find her next
husband and how is she going to

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00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:04,200
off him without anybody knowing.
And, and just all of these ideas

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00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,880
are really funny and they don't
all end up in the stories.

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00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,000
But together we put together
this story and I, we put

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00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,480
together a story that I think
not any one of us could have put

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00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,000
together, but together we, we
come up with a sum that's

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00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,000
greater than our individual
efforts.

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I am taking a screen writing
class right now through UCLA.

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I'd like to make a screenplay
version of The Strength of Water

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00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,360
that's a little fictionalized,
and part of the class is that

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you have to read or have your
fellow students act pages of

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00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:46,760
your screenplay out loud, and
hearing other people act out

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00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,120
your words is enlightening.
You hear where the dialogue

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00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:54,200
doesn't land quite correctly and
then you get their feedback on

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00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:58,080
what they liked, what they
didn't quite understand, what

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00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:59,680
they thought should be
amplified.

335
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:07,000
It is so helpful.
Other than that, I would say

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00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:13,920
time in nature is often
inspiring because in front of

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00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,360
being just free from screens and
phones allows you to have a

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00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:23,520
softer focus that allows ideas
to percolate and help you make

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00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:28,320
connections between different
areas that are sometimes hard to

340
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,440
see when you're in that sort of
calcified focus in front of your

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00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:37,240
computer.
Yeah, it yeah.

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00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,160
I think I love.
That ideas, yeah.

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00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,000
One goal we have with this
podcast is to Co create the

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00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,640
Ampersand manifesto for leading
a multi passionate life.

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00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,440
What are some principles that
you live by?

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00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:56,240
You know.
I think because I have had these

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00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,440
multiple interests, I think I've
sometimes thought that was kind

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00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,400
of not the greatest thing.
Like, like you have to be really

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00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,840
focused in one area to achieve
greatness.

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00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,160
And recently, my husband and I
went to Italy, and in Rome we

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00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,440
went to the Galleria Borghese,
where we went to see sculptures

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00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,160
of the great Renaissance
sculpture Gian Lorenzo Bernini.

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00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,000
I wasn't even familiar with him,
but my husband is an artist, so

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00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,400
he was really excited to see
this.

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00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,680
And I was so blown away.
Throughout Italy, you see all

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00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,040
these amazing sculptures and
then you see Bernini's work and

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00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,880
it's transcendent.
And then you learn that he did

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00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:46,720
these when he was 23 and 27, and
that in enough is enough to be

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00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,920
amazed by.
But then you learn he was a

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00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,960
painter, he was a sculpture, he
did city planning and

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00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,920
architecture, he designed
decorative art.

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00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,480
And obviously he was
exceptional, a prodigy for the

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00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,440
ages.
But then you look at his

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00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,680
education and he did not have
formal academic education.

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00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,000
He started learning sculpture,
sculpting when he was 6.

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00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,920
And he seemed to have this life
of being immersed at a practical

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00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,040
level in different
apprenticeships in areas that he

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00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:28,400
showed interest or talent for.
And I think, wow, what an

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00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,720
amazing life to.
Immerse.

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00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,360
Fully and different passions and
believe that you can be

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00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:41,000
successful and achieve something
in these different areas.

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00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,400
So that's been that was a lesson
to me to not think, oh, I'm just

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00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,480
easily distracted or or I don't
have focus.

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00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:56,840
It was like, no, the this, this
is a strength, Karen.

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00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,040
It's been wonderful talking with
you folks.

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00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,720
You can check out Karen Jensen's
work at Karen K Jensen dot blog

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00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,120
or on Instagram at Karen K
Jensen and you can find her

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00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:12,600
book, The Strength of Water
anywhere you get your books.

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00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:14,840
We'll link to these in the show
notes.

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00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,560
If you liked this show, share it
with your friends and fellow

381
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,720
ampersands and make sure to hit
the follow button to be notified

382
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,320
when new episodes drop.
It would mean the world to us if

383
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,760
you took two minutes to rate and
review the show.

384
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,920
Just go to the main show page on
Apple Podcasts or Spotify and

385
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,680
look for the stars.
I had a chance to listen back on

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00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,480
my conversation with Karen, and
I wanted to share a few key

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00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:53,080
takeaways. 1 The seasons of life
are the frame in which our work

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00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,880
exists.
Karen started.

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00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,280
Her book in the early 2000s,
more than 20 years ago and

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00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,760
finished writing it in 2018 when
the pandemic hit.

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00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,960
The silver lining for her was
that the quiet time allowed her

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00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,760
to wrap up this book and get it
out into the world.

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I found in my.
Own life that when you

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00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,160
acknowledge the season you're in
instead of fighting against it,

395
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,880
you can set more realistic goals
and also find more contentment

396
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:32,080
in whatever season you are in. 2
fighting for your little slice

397
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,360
of happiness in this world.
The core thesis in The Strength

398
00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:41,520
of Water is really this finding
happiness.

399
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,000
My parents were immigrants from
Taiwan to Canada.

400
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,960
Different circumstances than
Karen's mom, but still very much

401
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,880
in the vein of finding a better
life, more opportunity, and more

402
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,640
possibility for future
generations.

403
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,560
Following in the.
Steps of Karen's first quote.

404
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,960
My grandmother was a nurse in
the Chinese Civil War, so my

405
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:13,040
mother could find her American
dream so that I could tell these

406
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:19,040
stories.
On this podcast, Three answering

407
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,720
the call.
It was fascinating to hear about

408
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,280
how Karen was asked to take over
teaching the preschool dance

409
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:31,160
class, really by necessity, and
then she fell in love with it

410
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,160
and took her dance instruction
further.

411
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,720
The universe.
Works in interesting ways.

412
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,560
We can be initially resistant
and maybe not see things that

413
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,000
others might see in US, but
opportunities tend to come

414
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,680
around when the time is right,
especially for the things that

415
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:52,200
we love.