Leigh Marz: The Power of Silence on the Page, the Dance Floor, and Across Sectors

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We connect on the dance floor,
there's something that happens

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to you.
You don't necessarily know the

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people's names, but you've
shared something and you're

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bonded and we have each other's
backs and there's community

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there.
It's just gorgeous what happens

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and an age-old technology that
we're tapping into.

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I'm thrilled to be talking with
Lee Mars, author, collaboration

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consultant, and rhythm and
motion dance instructor.

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She and Justin Zorn co-authored
the book Golden, The Power of

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Silence in a World of Noise,
published by Harper Collins and

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translated into 15 languages
worldwide.

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Lee's favorite way to find
internal silence is on the

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thumping dance floor.
She's a choreographer and dance

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instructor with Rhythm and
Motion, also known as R and MA

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High Energy Dance Workout
program that cultivates A

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welcoming, accepting atmosphere
for all people, regardless of

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age, ability or background.
Lee's third ampersand is as a

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collaboration consultant.
She's LED diverse initiatives

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including a training program to
promote an experimental mindset

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among multi generational teams
at NASA.

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She's also facilitated A decade
long cross sector collaboration

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to reduce toxic chemicals in
partnership with the Green

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Science Policy Institute,
Harvard University, Kaiser

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Permanente and many others.
Lee, welcome to the show.

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Thanks for having me, Jessica.
It's so good to be with you.

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It's so good to be with you and
I feel so grateful to have you

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in my life.
Most weeks I dance with you on

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Tuesdays and Fridays in your R&M
class at Berkeley Ballet

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Theatre, and it is so joyful and
so wonderful.

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I can't tell you how much dance
has uplifted my life, and you

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often say that dance is your
medicine.

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What has your personal journey
looked like with dance?

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Oh wow, it's.
Been winding and that's not an

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uncommon thing to hear from us
instructors and people in

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general but I was basically born
to dance and I knew that as a

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kid.
I started pretty young watching

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shows like some of you of a
certain age will remember solid

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gold.
So these like TV dance shows and

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I would just be glued to this.
And over there I learned this

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fan kick where you're, you could
do a whole round with your leg.

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And I must have done a 1,000,000
fan kicks, you know, and got

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into finally my aunt.
We did not have the funds at

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that time at all to to pay for,
you know, dance classes and

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costumes.
There's a lot of prohibitive,

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you know, expenses to engaging
the dance world as a even as a

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young person.
But my aunt offered to pay for

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some of those dance classes and
that kind of started me on my

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journey.
Although I'm remembering there

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was a dance class even before
that when I was living in New

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Jersey that was really feet free
form.

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It was an African diaspora dance
class where they did a lot of

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clacking of sticks and some
drumming.

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And it was.
So in fact, I think the joyful

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expansive experience I had there
is a 5 year old girl is in many

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ways what I'm trying to create
for us over and over again.

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Even with the layers of
choreography and stuff, it was,

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it was so beautifully done.
So it was, you know, it was

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pretty joyful on the front end.
And then as I went into

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adolescence and teenage years,
I, you know, you're relating to

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your body with a mirror.
You're basically growing up

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looking at a mirror.
And so things got quite

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complicated in that phase.
And it would, it was anything

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but silent as I, you know, just
to, to cross over to that

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ampersand.
But it got very noisy.

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And like many of the young women
I was dancing with, I went down

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a a track of eating disorders
and really just a lot of issues

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around my body and the, and I no
longer wanted to be in front of

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a mirror dancing and moving it.
But I came back around in

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college with a dance company I
joined that was modern and

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pretty, you know, pretty
experimental and edgy and, and

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fun.
And then also came back around

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to West African dance in African
diaspora where again feeling

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very free.
And so I've been pretty happy

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with my dance journey since my
20s.

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And it's really just been about
continuing to make space for

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this thing and really deepening
that, like appreciation,

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acknowledgement.
This is so much more than a

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workout.
It is a spiritual practice.

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And we connect on the dance
floor.

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We, you know, there's something
that happens to you.

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You don't necessarily know the
people's names, but you've

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shared something and you're
bonded.

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And we have each other's backs
and there's community there and

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it's just gorgeous what happens.
And it's an age-old technology

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that we're tapping into dances.
Like we've been doing this as

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long as we've been humoring.
So it's beautiful to partake.

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It absolutely is.
And there are times in R&M where

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I feel tears starting to well
up, especially when we get into

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our big circle and just being
there with other people.

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It there's something so
incredibly powerful and moving.

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And it's, it's interesting you
bring up the mirrors because in

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the class there are, you know,
the mirrors on the wall, but you

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as the instructor, you are also
our mirror.

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So R&M is a follow along class.
You can as a student be at any

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level, but the instructors, you
all need to know the routines,

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how to mirror them, how to like
start one way and, and then flip

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around.
And then I think there's over

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1000 routines.
And you mentioned you auditioned

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to become an R&M instructor at
49 years old.

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And as we all know, like our
memories start, you know, not

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not being as sharp as they were
in our 20s.

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What was it like to to do that?
Oh my gosh.

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Well, there was a lot of
periodic like, what am I doing?

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What am I thinking?
I'll back up to say that it was

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a student who told me, a student
I was teaching Zumba.

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I was a student who told me, you
know, there's this thing called

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rhythm emotion and you know, she
had experienced my choreography

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for years and she's I just think
there's a fit there.

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So I followed her lead.
I was so grateful for that, for

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her seeing me and introducing
me.

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I even though it's been here
for, you know, over 40 years, I,

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I had never encountered it.
So I end up, you know, showing

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up in, in my colleagues class.
Her name is Rena and Marie

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Guidry.
And, and I was like, yes, what

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do I have to do?
How soon can I do this?

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So yeah, that year and it
changes, but that year was we

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were, I guess kind of behind on
in on getting instructors up,

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you know, into the training
program.

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And so there was a big, you
know, I don't know, there's a

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big supply of us and there was,
we decided to do it or they

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decided to do an audition.
And it felt like Coors lying to

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me, like high, high, high
stress.

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So I wasn't just think, I wasn't
even, it's like I didn't even

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know what I didn't know.
Like the memory part wasn't even

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on my mind.
I was just thinking how

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physically am I going to do
this?

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How do I like the cardio level?
Levels are extraordinary, as you

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know, especially if you're
trying to then also give

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auditory commands in the space
since it's so follow along and

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so active.
So anyway, I, I don't know, in

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my mind's eye, there were
hundreds of people there at that

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audition.
I think in reality, there might

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have been 40 and that was still
a lot and and somehow or another

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I made it through that cut.
At this point, there's three of

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us remaining who are doing that
from, from those days at

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instructor days as there's
natural attrition as you engage,

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like you're saying, the level of
memory and level of mastery that

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like I've really truly never
done anything harder, more

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challenging because it's
challenging mentally, it's

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challenging physically.
There's a lot that you need to

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bring to it emotionally to be
attuned to the space that you're

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trying to create for the people
that are in your class.

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So it's it's the most joyful job
I have in in many ways, the most

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by far demanding.
I'll add, there's one joke.

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At that time I was doing that
work with NASA about the same

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time as the audition.
I was preparing to do a

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PowerPoint for the senior team
of NASA Goddard Space Flight

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Center.
And you know, this was like,

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like how to synthesize 3 years
of work with them and a lot of

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data.
And I'm like giving this to the

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top engineers of the world.
And I am just like, for the

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record, not one of my Ampere
stands is not an engineer or

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mathematic genius.
I am not, I am not those things.

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So I I was definitely working
hard on it, but it was nothing

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compared to this process.
It was easy.

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Preparing for the preparation
for the senior team presentation

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for NASA was by far easier than
this audition and my training

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with Rhythm Emotion.
I remember the first day I came

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in, in probably December 2024,
and you pulled me aside.

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You saw right away I was.
It was my first class.

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You said there's no need to be
perfect.

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Just just start with your feet,
add the arms when possible.

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Just try not to run into
anybody.

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Great, great advice.
Yeah.

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I want to talk about your book
Golden.

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You and your co-author Justin A2
to Silence listened deeply and

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wrote the book over the course
of six years.

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How did you choose Silence as
the main focus of the book?

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Well, we were introduced by a
friend and the reason we were

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introduced is because this
friend felt like, oh, the

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consulting, you know, what I
call collaboration consulting

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work, He looked a little
similar.

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He's younger than me.
And so I guess the idea was that

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I might be being offering a
little bit of mentorship there.

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But then we were discussing
things we care about or we're

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interested in.
And initially we decided how

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we're interested in this idea of
authenticity and leadership

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because this was a time when
there was a lot of talk about

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authentic leadership.
And, and that was sort of being

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depicted mostly like by blurting
out whatever thought came to

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your mind.
But that actually is not

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authentic leadership in the way
at least, you know,

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philosophically.
And there's a beautiful

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tradition of looking at
authenticity.

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So we took that, we took that
exploration into writing a

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magazine article that was
published in Time.

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And that was because of Justin's
massive experience as an as a

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writer and having published by
now hundreds of, of articles.

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But what we were, we initially
pitched that to Harvard Business

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Review and they said, Oh no,
this is a little too political,

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but pitched some other ideas.
So we did pitched an idea that

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was kind of like, well, actually
three ideas that were a little

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managerial.
And I don't know if you've seen

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those species that zipped up and
whatever, but we have had this

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conversation about the power of
silence to help identify

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strategy like that.
Really like if we can get quiet

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instead of scrambling for the
their next strategic move and

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some situation.
Justin's background is in DC and

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in politics as legislative
director for three members of

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Congress.
So he's looking at strategy like

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that.
I'm looking at these cross

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sector strategy pieces.
If we can get those groups

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quiet, which is never easy,
we're going to get a lot closer

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to the truth.
So we, we, we added a fourth

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topic for Harvard Business
Review, which was just silence.

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And we as strategy or something
like that as a, as a way to

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clarify strategy.
And to our surprise, they said

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silence.
And you know, go for it.

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The no direction, absolutely no
direction.

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So we wrote an article for them
called The busier you are, The

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more you need quiet.
I think actually they titled it

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that, which I think was
actually, we titled it something

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really cumbersome and you know,
smart sounding or blah, blah,

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blah, whatever.
But they titled it something

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accessible.
The busier you are, the more you

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need quiet time.
And that went viral.

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So that's when we just thought
we were doing a little bit of

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article writing, but really we
thought.

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Let's step back.
And see what's being asked of us

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because we, he had never had
that experience at all, the

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dozens and dozens and hundreds
of articles he'd written.

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And it was only the second time
I'd written anything.

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And it just resonated deeply
with us.

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But we took it seriously.
So I would say that process of

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like, are we going to move
forward was about a 5 or 6 month

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process for us to say, OK, we
need to meet each other's

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family.
So we need to kind of weave our

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lives together and see what
would it mean to write a book

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about silence.
And that's what we did.

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And Golden was published in
2022.

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It's been 4 years and seems like
the world in my perspective has

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only gotten noisier.
What has the reception to the

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book looked like over the last
four years and how has it

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changed as as the times have
changed?

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You know, I would say the
reception has not changed if

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people are able to find it
through all the noise.

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That's the issue, I think right
now with not just our book, but

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there, to me that feels like
there's a number of books that

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are trying to get our attention
about, for example, how loud the

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world is, how scarce good
exquisite human attention is.

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You know, how scarce it is, how
everything's clamoring for it.

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Maybe less so about internal
noise and anxiety, but there's

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some books about that.
So it just, you know, as well as

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like, where do we find our, you
know, moral compass, our values,

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our spirit, you know, our
guidance these days, our

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alignment in in this world that
could be described so many ways,

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but we're describing it as full
of noise.

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So I feel like there's a good
number of books that are making

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the same call to readers.
And I'm, you know, grateful to

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00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,880
be a part of that.
And our challenge across the

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board with these is cutting
through the noise so that it can

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actually reach the people it
needs to be and you need to

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reach it.
So we have never had the

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experience of anyone saying,
well, why are you writing a book

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00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,840
about silence?
Or you know what, what what's

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the problem with noise?
You know, there's just, I mean,

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just a thing, you know, I like
some authors get met with some

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resistance or like, oh, there's
already books about that.

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We just didn't.
It was just like, yes, and it's

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only more of a yes.
And, you know, there was some

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statistic that the CEO of
Google, Eric Schmidt, back in

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00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:34,600
the early 2000s said every two
days we create as much content

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00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,040
as we did from the dawn of
civilization to now.

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And that has to be, that was 23
years ago, that quote.

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So it I just can't even fathom.
So I mean, I wish I I wish I

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knew this book was going out
into the world and touching

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hearts and changing.
I certainly hear from people and

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it's so I'm so grateful for
that.

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And then it's being translated
into different languages and now

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paperback, making it more
affordable.

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All these things and or that the
podcasts reach people, all these

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things.
But it's just a tiny drop, you

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00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:16,880
know, And in the cacophony that
we're in, I'm grateful but to be

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a part of it.
But it's we got a long way to

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go.
A long way to go.

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Let's take a moment to reflect
on this question.

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Where do you need more silence
in your life?

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00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,920
Are you in Ampersand looking for
community inspiration and

279
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,360
resources?
Come join us in the cohort where

280
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:48,440
we help you grow and scale your
creative and professional

281
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,920
aspirations.
If you're looking for more

282
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,520
dedicated support, ioffer
executive coaching for business

283
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,160
leaders, people managers,
creatives, and of course,

284
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,280
Ampersands.
Find out more about the cohort

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00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,440
and one-on-one coaching at
jessica1.com.

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00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:13,360
Now back to the show.
In your book, you and Justin

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00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:18,080
interviewed Jarvis J Masters, an
innocent man on death row, and

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00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,240
he's since become a close friend
of yours.

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00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:26,080
How has this impacted your own
perspective on life?

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00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,720
Wow, getting to know Jarvis.
Oh, what a blessing this is.

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00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,920
OK, so we've got, like, rhythm.
Emotion is one of the greatest

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00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,920
blessings in my life.
There are many blessings in my

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00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,080
life.
Jarvis J Masters is another one.

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00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,800
So he is an innocent man on
death row.

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00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,840
He was in San Quentin for 42
years, in solitary confinement

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00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:52,040
for 22 years, longer than any
human ever in the history of

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00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:57,360
that prison.
And more recently, Newsom, I'll

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00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,560
use the word disbanded.
It's a little bit a strange

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00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,760
word, but disbanded death row as
we know it, where they're all in

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00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,000
one place, those 5 to 600 men
and they're spread throughout

301
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,520
California and in prisons that
can handle that levels.

302
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,280
They're sort of more integrated
into the prison system across

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00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,360
California.
So he's now 4 hours away from

304
00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:21,200
me.
But what I'll say about our

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00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,360
friendship is that, you know, we
had multiple interviews with him

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00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,520
just and I together And then,
you know, he when he was at San

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00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,480
Quentin, he's just a stone's
throw from me.

308
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,120
So I started to come see him.
I started to see him, you know,

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00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:34,840
I could see him quite a bit.
And my daughter started coming

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00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,480
with me, my husband, you know,
we started it just felt to me

311
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,280
like I had this Jarvis sized
hole in my being, in my heart.

312
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,720
And he had a Lee sized, you
know, hole in his heart.

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00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,480
And we talked many times a week.
And my commitment is really to

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00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,120
his liberation in whatever way I
can help.

315
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,600
And so there's, you know, case
cases.

316
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,400
Now there's another appeal.
There's some legislation in

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00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,560
California, the Racial Justice
Act, that holds some promise for

318
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,160
going to the way, way, way, way.
Beginnings of his court hearings

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00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,520
to look for racial bias, which
of course there was a Jarvis as

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00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:17,400
a black man, he was the.
Yeah, the the thing he was

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00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,360
accused of and sentenced for was
sharpening a weapon that killed

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00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,360
a a prison guard at San Quentin
so that that whole time he's

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00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,400
been living there, like on the
scene of the crime in the

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00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,160
stressors of that environment.
But now he's out out of that

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00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,480
environment into California
men's colony.

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00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,480
And there's new legislation,
there's sort of new perspective

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00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,760
on how maybe his freedom can as
his can be found.

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00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,520
And those who want to know more
about him, there's a website

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00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,920
calledfreejob@jarvis.org, if you
don't mind sharing that, That'd

330
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,320
be great.
And he's written two books.

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00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,680
They're best.
He's a New York Times

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00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:59,000
bestselling author because Oprah
picked his book That Bird Has My

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00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,080
Wings for her book group.
And it's beautiful writing.

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00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,080
I mean, he's just a beautiful
human, beautiful writing.

335
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,040
I'll add one thing that I once,
you know, was talking to him

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00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:17,880
about how difficult it is to be
imprisoned when he's innocent.

337
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:23,320
And he said, well, it would be a
lot more difficult if I knew I

338
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,760
were guilty.
And so that's the kind of man he

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00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,160
is.
He's like, you know, he's, he's

340
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,640
sitting waiting for a system to
correct itself that is not built

341
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,240
to correct itself, advocating
for himself, writing.

342
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,480
He's touched so many people's
lives, mine, my daughter, my

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00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,200
husband, literally, you know,
many, many huge Tibetan Buddhist

344
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,640
community, you know, but all
kinds of people.

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00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,320
He loves young people.
He loves being involved in their

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00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:51,040
lives.
And.

347
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,680
Yeah, yeah, he's a bodhisattva
living, living in prison on

348
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,040
death row as an innocent man.
An amazing story.

349
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:03,120
Thanks for asking about him.
Yeah, he's an amazing human.

350
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:05,680
I do hope people learn more
about him.

351
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,600
Let's talk a little bit about
your collaboration consulting

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00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,960
work.
You have led to these diverse

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00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,800
initiatives including a training
program at the NASA Goddard

354
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,920
Space Flight Center and a decade
long cross sector collaboration

355
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,680
to reduce toxic chemicals.
What do you love about this

356
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,880
work?
I think you're, you know, even

357
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,800
just talking with you is
highlighting something that I

358
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,720
realize I love about this work.
And it is the ampersand of it

359
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,760
all.
Like if you're talking about a

360
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,240
cross sector group, you're
talking about people with really

361
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,720
different perspectives in the
work and in the case of the

362
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,600
cross sector group, working to
reduce and remove toxic

363
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,560
chemicals from our from our
homes and our planet.

364
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:53,360
Then you're talking about people
who are coming from the

365
00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:57,040
academic, you know, sectors and
looking at it as academics.

366
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,560
You're talking about NGOs who
are looking at it from consumer

367
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,600
and advocate perspective,
environmentalists of all kinds.

368
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,720
You're looking at government
entities that regulate these or

369
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,800
don't.
However that looks you're

370
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,000
looking at business
manufacturers and retailers and

371
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,800
their engagement these the
businesses we work with and the

372
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,120
retailers and the manufacturers
care to be working on this

373
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:24,480
issue.
So that's why they're there.

374
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:29,400
So there's a shared mission, but
super diverse perspectives and

375
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,320
and ways that they're coming to
it.

376
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,880
And then what I love to do as a
consultant is also invite in the

377
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,280
other parts of their lives.
Like, you know, we have birders,

378
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,560
we have Mountaineers, we have
cellists, we have whatever their

379
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,040
ampere stands are.
And then that's where new

380
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,360
thinking really arises.
That's where novel strategy

381
00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:56,000
arises.
So it depends on the amber stand

382
00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:59,240
because otherwise we would just
come to these problems in the

383
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,440
same old, same old way, which is
not what we're gathering with so

384
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,680
much, you know, energy and
resource and time.

385
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,440
We're gathering to do something
breakthrough and novel on these

386
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,600
otherwise and seemingly
intractable problems.

387
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,520
So we might bring in some
silence and bring in some

388
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,160
opportunity for their their,
their other selves to enter the

389
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,280
room and think upon this
problem.

390
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,600
I literally have an activity
that's about that.

391
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,600
And then we spend days together,
you know, coming at this

392
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,280
hopefully really differently.
And that cross sector is one I'm

393
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,320
most, most proud of.
It's been about 14 years we've

394
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,560
been working together now.
And they are the ones moving the

395
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,960
needle on Pee Foss.
They're the ones highly

396
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,040
fluorinated chemicals that have
addressing fire retardants and

397
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,400
different things in our products
and antimicrobials and all you

398
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,880
know, these are the people you
want in charge of that.

399
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,400
Yeah.
Oh, you're an ampersand

400
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:58,920
cultivator.
I love.

401
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:04,120
I love it so much.
What else ties together your

402
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:08,600
work as an author, collaboration
consultant, dancer,

403
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,880
choreographer, dance instructor?
What I've come to find is

404
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,520
there's a complimentary nature.
Let's I'll just take writing and

405
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,560
dancing.
You know, this body of mine

406
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,160
wants to dance.
It does not want to sit at a

407
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:27,840
desk and write ever.
And that of course, consulting

408
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,080
has a certain level of that desk
work too.

409
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:36,640
So just even the ability to have
a really beautiful like chunk of

410
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,880
writing time, but then to step
away and then to move.

411
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,360
And I can, I can remember
especially the most active parts

412
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:46,640
of the writing getting to the
point where my brain is like

413
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,840
completely full.
Not one more thing can happen.

414
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,280
Not even an edit can happen.
I'm just done.

415
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,480
But you know, there's dance and
there's the class I'm teaching

416
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,440
in the day.
And so like, OK, let's move the

417
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,720
body.
And then like, lo and behold,

418
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,240
that's how I'm going to come
back to this piece of writing.

419
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,280
And so they're just like working
so beautifully.

420
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,800
And even the way the, you know,
the research in silence and how

421
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,280
much it was teaching me about
the importance of it, like just

422
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,560
to bring in all the more
reverence and appreciation and

423
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,000
value to the dance I was doing
to not diminish it, you know,

424
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,840
minimize it like, oh, it's just
this little hobby.

425
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,080
It's so not.
It's just, you know, again and

426
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,800
again and again.
Some of us maybe are better at

427
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,760
this than others, but sometimes
it's about really learning to

428
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,200
honor and recognize and lift up
these places that are the

429
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,040
ampersand places because we tend
to be forced to pick one.

430
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,160
Well, I refuse, I refuse.
I will not do that.

431
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:52,840
I mean, and then of course,
there's like the writing and

432
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,200
what it would mean to my
consulting to really actually

433
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,200
stretch these groups into
finding silence together.

434
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:02,720
A silence that's shared is a
magnified silence.

435
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,120
And it really did help clarify
strategy.

436
00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:09,240
I have found, you know, in
groups and, you know, at a

437
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,680
certain point it was not so edgy
and strange to ask for that.

438
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:18,560
I would bring more and more open
space to my retreats so that

439
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,800
people could actually drop in
instead of packing them just

440
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,240
densely with this like content
and PowerPoints and all.

441
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,680
You know, there's a lot of bad
habits in there to try to give

442
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,920
people their money's worth, but
it's not what's going to give

443
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,480
them the outcomes they want.
So and then I'd even bring dance

444
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,960
into, you know, so my
collaboration consulting is that

445
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,520
my line with them is there's
always time for a 3 minute dance

446
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,480
party.
So I 3 minute dance party up,

447
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,360
you're up out of your seats.
Let's move our bodies.

448
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:51,880
You know, we've been sitting for
too long.

449
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,920
We've been pondering this really
difficult, you know,

450
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,760
overwhelming question of like,
you know, let's say like heavy

451
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,640
metals or something.
You know, it's like it's hard

452
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,320
stuff.
We better shake it out and shake

453
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,160
it through and then come back to
it.

454
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,560
So they're like, I have to say
it probably is when I've been

455
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:16,960
happiest professionally as when
really I started opening those,

456
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,120
you know, those boundaries
between the two and bringing

457
00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:22,480
them into another.
And I think that's when I've

458
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,600
done my best work by far.
That's such a great answer.

459
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,080
One goal we have with this
podcast is to Co create the

460
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,120
Ampersand Manifesto principles
for leading a multi passionate

461
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:38,640
life.
What are some of the principles

462
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,120
that you live by?
I've never been a real fan of

463
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,640
being in a box or even coloring,
but you know, coloring in the

464
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,240
lines.
So that full expression is part

465
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:54,160
of what I'm here to do.
And the more I'm in that place

466
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,080
of full expression, I just can
see the quality of my work go

467
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,760
up.
So I think there's something in

468
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,360
there about being, you know, the
permission for full expression

469
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,080
with the, you know, there's a
responsibility for impact there.

470
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,880
But it's like really we, most of
us are really zipped up and

471
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,960
keeping it too close and maybe
being too categorical to really

472
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,960
be doing our best work.
So there's a full permission

473
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,920
piece I have to say.
Lee, it has been so wonderful

474
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,000
talking with you folks.
If you are anywhere near an R&M

475
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,200
class, come and dance with us.
Check out rhythminmotion.com.

476
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,840
You can find Lee's book and
consulting work at leemars.com

477
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,040
and estrellastrategies.com, and
we'll link to these in the show

478
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:51,080
notes.
If you liked this show, share it

479
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,720
with your friends and fellow
ampersands, and make sure to hit

480
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,240
the follow button to be notified
when new episodes drop.

481
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,840
It would mean the world to us if
you took two minutes to rate and

482
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,360
review the show.
Just go to the main show page on

483
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,200
Apple Podcasts or Spotify and
look for the stars.

484
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,160
I had a chance to listen back on
my interview with Lee and I

485
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,240
wanted to share a few key
takeaways.

486
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:24,600
One, dance as a mirror.
Lee shared how her journey with

487
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,520
dance reflected how she was
feeling in her own body at

488
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,720
different ages and stages in her
life, and how that related to

489
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,880
her internal world.
There was a long time in my life

490
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,680
that I would not have identified
with being a dancer, even though

491
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,280
I did ballet, jazz dance and
Chinese folk dance as a kid and

492
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,400
later on dabbled with salsa and
ballroom.

493
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:53,040
In my earlier years, dance was
about getting it right or being

494
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:59,440
good at it or looking the part.
But in my 40s, where I've

495
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,920
definitely felt the most
comfortable and confident in

496
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:08,640
myself, R&M has mirrored those
feelings of joy and acceptance

497
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:17,160
right back to me. 2 Being an
ampersand cultivator, I love how

498
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:23,800
Lee has the big ampersand of
bodywork and mind work, and I

499
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,240
love that within her consulting
practice it's also all about the

500
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,720
ampersands bringing together
different sectors and academic

501
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,280
disciplines.
I'm really inspired to hear that

502
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,720
Lee is bringing the idea of
ampersand to all these people

503
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,480
she's working with, fostering
innovation and new ways of

504
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:50,520
thinking. 3 Flow between the
world's.

505
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,400
This has come up on the show
before.

506
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,640
Having multiple worlds allows
you a productive place to go

507
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,200
when you're feeling stuck or
maxed out on one or the other.

508
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,280
There's the famous example of
Albert Einstein going to play

509
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,200
the violin whenever he got stuck
on a physics problem, and Lee

510
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,120
gave the example of going to
dance after a long writing

511
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,040
session.
Instead of thinking about the

512
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,920
two as separate.
It's more of a flow energy being

513
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:27,040
produced that can be applied in
other ways and uplifting many

514
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,520
areas of your life holistically.