Leigh Marz: The Power of Silence on the Page, the Dance Floor, and Across Sectors

0:06 We connect on the dance floor, there's something that happens to you. You don't necessarily know the people's names, but you've shared something and you're bonded and we have each other's backs and there's community there. It's just gorgeous what happens and an age-old technology that we're tapping into. I'm thrilled to be talking with Lee Mars, author, collaboration consultant, and rhythm and motion dance instructor. She and Justin Zorn co-authored the book Golden, The Power of Silence in a World of Noise, published by Harper Collins and translated into 15 languages worldwide. Lee's favorite way to find internal silence is on the thumping dance floor. She's a choreographer and dance instructor with Rhythm and Motion, also known as R and MA High Energy Dance Workout program that cultivates A welcoming, accepting atmosphere for all people, regardless of age, ability or background. Lee's third ampersand is as a collaboration consultant. She's LED diverse initiatives including a training program to promote an experimental mindset among multi generational teams at NASA.

1:24 She's also facilitated A decade long cross sector collaboration to reduce toxic chemicals in partnership with the Green Science Policy Institute, Harvard University, Kaiser Permanente and many others. Lee, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Jessica. It's so good to be with you. It's so good to be with you and I feel so grateful to have you in my life. Most weeks I dance with you on Tuesdays and Fridays in your R&M class at Berkeley Ballet Theatre, and it is so joyful and so wonderful. I can't tell you how much dance has uplifted my life, and you often say that dance is your medicine.

2:11 What has your personal journey looked like with dance? Oh wow, it's. Been winding and that's not an uncommon thing to hear from us instructors and people in general but I was basically born to dance and I knew that as a kid. I started pretty young watching shows like some of you of a certain age will remember solid gold. So these like TV dance shows and I would just be glued to this. And over there I learned this fan kick where you're, you could do a whole round with your leg. And I must have done a 1,000,000 fan kicks, you know, and got into finally my aunt. We did not have the funds at that time at all to to pay for, you know, dance classes and costumes. There's a lot of prohibitive, you know, expenses to engaging the dance world as a even as a young person. But my aunt offered to pay for some of those dance classes and that kind of started me on my journey. Although I'm remembering there was a dance class even before that when I was living in New Jersey that was really feet free form.

3:28 It was an African diaspora dance class where they did a lot of clacking of sticks and some drumming. And it was. So in fact, I think the joyful expansive experience I had there is a 5 year old girl is in many ways what I'm trying to create for us over and over again. Even with the layers of choreography and stuff, it was, it was so beautifully done. So it was, you know, it was pretty joyful on the front end. And then as I went into adolescence and teenage years, I, you know, you're relating to your body with a mirror. You're basically growing up looking at a mirror. And so things got quite complicated in that phase. And it would, it was anything but silent as I, you know, just to, to cross over to that ampersand. But it got very noisy.

4:22 And like many of the young women I was dancing with, I went down a a track of eating disorders and really just a lot of issues around my body and the, and I no longer wanted to be in front of a mirror dancing and moving it. But I came back around in college with a dance company I joined that was modern and pretty, you know, pretty experimental and edgy and, and fun. And then also came back around to West African dance in African diaspora where again feeling very free. And so I've been pretty happy with my dance journey since my 20s.

5:03 And it's really just been about continuing to make space for this thing and really deepening that, like appreciation, acknowledgement. This is so much more than a workout. It is a spiritual practice. And we connect on the dance floor. We, you know, there's something that happens to you. You don't necessarily know the people's names, but you've shared something and you're bonded. And we have each other's backs and there's community there and it's just gorgeous what happens. And it's an age-old technology that we're tapping into dances. Like we've been doing this as long as we've been humoring. So it's beautiful to partake.

5:44 It absolutely is. And there are times in R&M where I feel tears starting to well up, especially when we get into our big circle and just being there with other people. It there's something so incredibly powerful and moving. And it's, it's interesting you bring up the mirrors because in the class there are, you know, the mirrors on the wall, but you as the instructor, you are also our mirror. So R&M is a follow along class. You can as a student be at any level, but the instructors, you all need to know the routines, how to mirror them, how to like start one way and, and then flip around. And then I think there's over 1000 routines. And you mentioned you auditioned to become an R&M instructor at 49 years old.

6:42 And as we all know, like our memories start, you know, not not being as sharp as they were in our 20s. What was it like to to do that? Oh my gosh. Well, there was a lot of periodic like, what am I doing? What am I thinking? I'll back up to say that it was a student who told me, a student I was teaching Zumba. I was a student who told me, you know, there's this thing called rhythm emotion and you know, she had experienced my choreography for years and she's I just think there's a fit there. So I followed her lead. I was so grateful for that, for her seeing me and introducing me.

7:23 I even though it's been here for, you know, over 40 years, I, I had never encountered it. So I end up, you know, showing up in, in my colleagues class. Her name is Rena and Marie Guidry. And, and I was like, yes, what do I have to do? How soon can I do this? So yeah, that year and it changes, but that year was we were, I guess kind of behind on in on getting instructors up, you know, into the training program. And so there was a big, you know, I don't know, there's a big supply of us and there was, we decided to do it or they decided to do an audition. And it felt like Coors lying to me, like high, high, high stress. So I wasn't just think, I wasn't even, it's like I didn't even know what I didn't know. Like the memory part wasn't even on my mind. I was just thinking how physically am I going to do this?

8:14 How do I like the cardio level? Levels are extraordinary, as you know, especially if you're trying to then also give auditory commands in the space since it's so follow along and so active. So anyway, I, I don't know, in my mind's eye, there were hundreds of people there at that audition. I think in reality, there might have been 40 and that was still a lot and and somehow or another I made it through that cut. At this point, there's three of us remaining who are doing that from, from those days at instructor days as there's natural attrition as you engage, like you're saying, the level of memory and level of mastery that like I've really truly never done anything harder, more challenging because it's challenging mentally, it's challenging physically. There's a lot that you need to bring to it emotionally to be attuned to the space that you're trying to create for the people that are in your class.

9:11 So it's it's the most joyful job I have in in many ways, the most by far demanding. I'll add, there's one joke. At that time I was doing that work with NASA about the same time as the audition. I was preparing to do a PowerPoint for the senior team of NASA Goddard Space Flight Center. And you know, this was like, like how to synthesize 3 years of work with them and a lot of data. And I'm like giving this to the top engineers of the world. And I am just like, for the record, not one of my Ampere stands is not an engineer or mathematic genius. I am not, I am not those things. So I I was definitely working hard on it, but it was nothing compared to this process. It was easy.

9:57 Preparing for the preparation for the senior team presentation for NASA was by far easier than this audition and my training with Rhythm Emotion. I remember the first day I came in, in probably December 2024, and you pulled me aside. You saw right away I was. It was my first class. You said there's no need to be perfect. Just just start with your feet, add the arms when possible. Just try not to run into anybody. Great, great advice. Yeah. I want to talk about your book Golden. You and your co-author Justin A2 to Silence listened deeply and wrote the book over the course of six years.

10:43 How did you choose Silence as the main focus of the book? Well, we were introduced by a friend and the reason we were introduced is because this friend felt like, oh, the consulting, you know, what I call collaboration consulting work, He looked a little similar. He's younger than me. And so I guess the idea was that I might be being offering a little bit of mentorship there. But then we were discussing things we care about or we're interested in. And initially we decided how we're interested in this idea of authenticity and leadership because this was a time when there was a lot of talk about authentic leadership. And, and that was sort of being depicted mostly like by blurting out whatever thought came to your mind. But that actually is not authentic leadership in the way at least, you know, philosophically. And there's a beautiful tradition of looking at authenticity.

11:43 So we took that, we took that exploration into writing a magazine article that was published in Time. And that was because of Justin's massive experience as an as a writer and having published by now hundreds of, of articles. But what we were, we initially pitched that to Harvard Business Review and they said, Oh no, this is a little too political, but pitched some other ideas. So we did pitched an idea that was kind of like, well, actually three ideas that were a little managerial. And I don't know if you've seen those species that zipped up and whatever, but we have had this conversation about the power of silence to help identify strategy like that. Really like if we can get quiet instead of scrambling for the their next strategic move and some situation. Justin's background is in DC and in politics as legislative director for three members of Congress. So he's looking at strategy like that. I'm looking at these cross sector strategy pieces. If we can get those groups quiet, which is never easy, we're going to get a lot closer to the truth. So we, we, we added a fourth topic for Harvard Business Review, which was just silence.

13:04 And we as strategy or something like that as a, as a way to clarify strategy. And to our surprise, they said silence. And you know, go for it. The no direction, absolutely no direction. So we wrote an article for them called The busier you are, The more you need quiet. I think actually they titled it that, which I think was actually, we titled it something really cumbersome and you know, smart sounding or blah, blah, blah, whatever. But they titled it something accessible. The busier you are, the more you need quiet time. And that went viral. So that's when we just thought we were doing a little bit of article writing, but really we thought.

13:49 Let's step back. And see what's being asked of us because we, he had never had that experience at all, the dozens and dozens and hundreds of articles he'd written. And it was only the second time I'd written anything. And it just resonated deeply with us. But we took it seriously. So I would say that process of like, are we going to move forward was about a 5 or 6 month process for us to say, OK, we need to meet each other's family. So we need to kind of weave our lives together and see what would it mean to write a book about silence. And that's what we did. And Golden was published in 2022. It's been 4 years and seems like the world in my perspective has only gotten noisier. What has the reception to the book looked like over the last four years and how has it changed as as the times have changed?

14:45 You know, I would say the reception has not changed if people are able to find it through all the noise. That's the issue, I think right now with not just our book, but there, to me that feels like there's a number of books that are trying to get our attention about, for example, how loud the world is, how scarce good exquisite human attention is. You know, how scarce it is, how everything's clamoring for it. Maybe less so about internal noise and anxiety, but there's some books about that. So it just, you know, as well as like, where do we find our, you know, moral compass, our values, our spirit, you know, our guidance these days, our alignment in in this world that could be described so many ways, but we're describing it as full of noise.

15:36 So I feel like there's a good number of books that are making the same call to readers. And I'm, you know, grateful to be a part of that. And our challenge across the board with these is cutting through the noise so that it can actually reach the people it needs to be and you need to reach it. So we have never had the experience of anyone saying, well, why are you writing a book about silence? Or you know what, what what's the problem with noise? You know, there's just, I mean, just a thing, you know, I like some authors get met with some resistance or like, oh, there's already books about that. We just didn't. It was just like, yes, and it's only more of a yes. And, you know, there was some statistic that the CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, back in the early 2000s said every two days we create as much content as we did from the dawn of civilization to now.

16:39 And that has to be, that was 23 years ago, that quote. So it I just can't even fathom. So I mean, I wish I I wish I knew this book was going out into the world and touching hearts and changing. I certainly hear from people and it's so I'm so grateful for that. And then it's being translated into different languages and now paperback, making it more affordable. All these things and or that the podcasts reach people, all these things. But it's just a tiny drop, you know, And in the cacophony that we're in, I'm grateful but to be a part of it. But it's we got a long way to go. A long way to go.

17:23 Let's take a moment to reflect on this question. Where do you need more silence in your life? Are you in Ampersand looking for community inspiration and resources? Come join us in the cohort where we help you grow and scale your creative and professional aspirations. If you're looking for more dedicated support, ioffer executive coaching for business leaders, people managers, creatives, and of course, Ampersands. Find out more about the cohort and one-on-one coaching at jessica1.com.

18:05 Now back to the show. In your book, you and Justin interviewed Jarvis J Masters, an innocent man on death row, and he's since become a close friend of yours. How has this impacted your own perspective on life? Wow, getting to know Jarvis. Oh, what a blessing this is. OK, so we've got, like, rhythm. Emotion is one of the greatest blessings in my life. There are many blessings in my life. Jarvis J Masters is another one. So he is an innocent man on death row. He was in San Quentin for 42 years, in solitary confinement for 22 years, longer than any human ever in the history of that prison. And more recently, Newsom, I'll use the word disbanded. It's a little bit a strange word, but disbanded death row as we know it, where they're all in one place, those 5 to 600 men and they're spread throughout California and in prisons that can handle that levels.

19:12 They're sort of more integrated into the prison system across California. So he's now 4 hours away from me. But what I'll say about our friendship is that, you know, we had multiple interviews with him just and I together And then, you know, he when he was at San Quentin, he's just a stone's throw from me. So I started to come see him. I started to see him, you know, I could see him quite a bit. And my daughter started coming with me, my husband, you know, we started it just felt to me like I had this Jarvis sized hole in my being, in my heart. And he had a Lee sized, you know, hole in his heart. And we talked many times a week. And my commitment is really to his liberation in whatever way I can help.

19:54 And so there's, you know, case cases. Now there's another appeal. There's some legislation in California, the Racial Justice Act, that holds some promise for going to the way, way, way, way. Beginnings of his court hearings to look for racial bias, which of course there was a Jarvis as a black man, he was the. Yeah, the the thing he was accused of and sentenced for was sharpening a weapon that killed a a prison guard at San Quentin so that that whole time he's been living there, like on the scene of the crime in the stressors of that environment. But now he's out out of that environment into California men's colony.

20:35 And there's new legislation, there's sort of new perspective on how maybe his freedom can as his can be found. And those who want to know more about him, there's a website calledfreejob@jarvis.org, if you don't mind sharing that, That'd be great. And he's written two books. They're best. He's a New York Times bestselling author because Oprah picked his book That Bird Has My Wings for her book group. And it's beautiful writing. I mean, he's just a beautiful human, beautiful writing. I'll add one thing that I once, you know, was talking to him about how difficult it is to be imprisoned when he's innocent.

21:17 And he said, well, it would be a lot more difficult if I knew I were guilty. And so that's the kind of man he is. He's like, you know, he's, he's sitting waiting for a system to correct itself that is not built to correct itself, advocating for himself, writing. He's touched so many people's lives, mine, my daughter, my husband, literally, you know, many, many huge Tibetan Buddhist community, you know, but all kinds of people. He loves young people. He loves being involved in their lives. And. Yeah, yeah, he's a bodhisattva living, living in prison on death row as an innocent man. An amazing story.

22:00 Thanks for asking about him. Yeah, he's an amazing human. I do hope people learn more about him. Let's talk a little bit about your collaboration consulting work. You have led to these diverse initiatives including a training program at the NASA Goddard Space Flight Center and a decade long cross sector collaboration to reduce toxic chemicals. What do you love about this work? I think you're, you know, even just talking with you is highlighting something that I realize I love about this work. And it is the ampersand of it all. Like if you're talking about a cross sector group, you're talking about people with really different perspectives in the work and in the case of the cross sector group, working to reduce and remove toxic chemicals from our from our homes and our planet.

22:51 Then you're talking about people who are coming from the academic, you know, sectors and looking at it as academics. You're talking about NGOs who are looking at it from consumer and advocate perspective, environmentalists of all kinds. You're looking at government entities that regulate these or don't. However that looks you're looking at business manufacturers and retailers and their engagement these the businesses we work with and the retailers and the manufacturers care to be working on this issue. So that's why they're there. So there's a shared mission, but super diverse perspectives and and ways that they're coming to it.

23:31 And then what I love to do as a consultant is also invite in the other parts of their lives. Like, you know, we have birders, we have Mountaineers, we have cellists, we have whatever their ampere stands are. And then that's where new thinking really arises. That's where novel strategy arises. So it depends on the amber stand because otherwise we would just come to these problems in the same old, same old way, which is not what we're gathering with so much, you know, energy and resource and time. We're gathering to do something breakthrough and novel on these otherwise and seemingly intractable problems.

24:13 So we might bring in some silence and bring in some opportunity for their their, their other selves to enter the room and think upon this problem. I literally have an activity that's about that. And then we spend days together, you know, coming at this hopefully really differently. And that cross sector is one I'm most, most proud of. It's been about 14 years we've been working together now. And they are the ones moving the needle on Pee Foss. They're the ones highly fluorinated chemicals that have addressing fire retardants and different things in our products and antimicrobials and all you know, these are the people you want in charge of that.

24:54 Yeah. Oh, you're an ampersand cultivator. I love. I love it so much. What else ties together your work as an author, collaboration consultant, dancer, choreographer, dance instructor? What I've come to find is there's a complimentary nature. Let's I'll just take writing and dancing. You know, this body of mine wants to dance. It does not want to sit at a desk and write ever. And that of course, consulting has a certain level of that desk work too. So just even the ability to have a really beautiful like chunk of writing time, but then to step away and then to move.

25:41 And I can, I can remember especially the most active parts of the writing getting to the point where my brain is like completely full. Not one more thing can happen. Not even an edit can happen. I'm just done. But you know, there's dance and there's the class I'm teaching in the day. And so like, OK, let's move the body. And then like, lo and behold, that's how I'm going to come back to this piece of writing. And so they're just like working so beautifully. And even the way the, you know, the research in silence and how much it was teaching me about the importance of it, like just to bring in all the more reverence and appreciation and value to the dance I was doing to not diminish it, you know, minimize it like, oh, it's just this little hobby.

26:27 It's so not. It's just, you know, again and again and again. Some of us maybe are better at this than others, but sometimes it's about really learning to honor and recognize and lift up these places that are the ampersand places because we tend to be forced to pick one. Well, I refuse, I refuse. I will not do that. I mean, and then of course, there's like the writing and what it would mean to my consulting to really actually stretch these groups into finding silence together. A silence that's shared is a magnified silence. And it really did help clarify strategy. I have found, you know, in groups and, you know, at a certain point it was not so edgy and strange to ask for that.

27:12 I would bring more and more open space to my retreats so that people could actually drop in instead of packing them just densely with this like content and PowerPoints and all. You know, there's a lot of bad habits in there to try to give people their money's worth, but it's not what's going to give them the outcomes they want. So and then I'd even bring dance into, you know, so my collaboration consulting is that my line with them is there's always time for a 3 minute dance party. So I 3 minute dance party up, you're up out of your seats. Let's move our bodies. You know, we've been sitting for too long. We've been pondering this really difficult, you know, overwhelming question of like, you know, let's say like heavy metals or something. You know, it's like it's hard stuff. We better shake it out and shake it through and then come back to it.

28:07 So they're like, I have to say it probably is when I've been happiest professionally as when really I started opening those, you know, those boundaries between the two and bringing them into another. And I think that's when I've done my best work by far. That's such a great answer. One goal we have with this podcast is to Co create the Ampersand Manifesto principles for leading a multi passionate life. What are some of the principles that you live by? I've never been a real fan of being in a box or even coloring, but you know, coloring in the lines. So that full expression is part of what I'm here to do. And the more I'm in that place of full expression, I just can see the quality of my work go up. So I think there's something in there about being, you know, the permission for full expression with the, you know, there's a responsibility for impact there.

29:10 But it's like really we, most of us are really zipped up and keeping it too close and maybe being too categorical to really be doing our best work. So there's a full permission piece I have to say. Lee, it has been so wonderful talking with you folks. If you are anywhere near an R&M class, come and dance with us. Check out rhythminmotion.com. You can find Lee's book and consulting work at leemars.com and estrellastrategies.com, and we'll link to these in the show notes. If you liked this show, share it with your friends and fellow ampersands, and make sure to hit the follow button to be notified when new episodes drop.

29:59 It would mean the world to us if you took two minutes to rate and review the show. Just go to the main show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and look for the stars. I had a chance to listen back on my interview with Lee and I wanted to share a few key takeaways. One, dance as a mirror. Lee shared how her journey with dance reflected how she was feeling in her own body at different ages and stages in her life, and how that related to her internal world. There was a long time in my life that I would not have identified with being a dancer, even though I did ballet, jazz dance and Chinese folk dance as a kid and later on dabbled with salsa and ballroom.

30:48 In my earlier years, dance was about getting it right or being good at it or looking the part. But in my 40s, where I've definitely felt the most comfortable and confident in myself, R&M has mirrored those feelings of joy and acceptance right back to me. 2 Being an ampersand cultivator, I love how Lee has the big ampersand of bodywork and mind work, and I love that within her consulting practice it's also all about the ampersands bringing together different sectors and academic disciplines. I'm really inspired to hear that Lee is bringing the idea of ampersand to all these people she's working with, fostering innovation and new ways of thinking. 3 Flow between the world's.

31:51 This has come up on the show before. Having multiple worlds allows you a productive place to go when you're feeling stuck or maxed out on one or the other. There's the famous example of Albert Einstein going to play the violin whenever he got stuck on a physics problem, and Lee gave the example of going to dance after a long writing session. Instead of thinking about the two as separate. It's more of a flow energy being produced that can be applied in other ways and uplifting many areas of your life holistically.