Why Creativity is Important in Business with Vasu Panicker, Music Maker and Business Strategist

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I think is creatives, especially
for those of us who have tried

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to work who have built great of
careers.

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We're kind of like the original
entrepreneurs.

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There is no template for what we
do, what fuels a multi

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passionate life, I'm Jessica
one.

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And in this podcast, I interview
people who straddle two,

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completely different worlds, I
call them ampersands and we are

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collectively designing the, a
Sand manifesta.

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I'm thrilled to be talking with
vasu pun, occur, Management,

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Consultant and musician.
Growing up as an Arts kid in New

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York City, lawsuit did his
undergrad and grad music studies

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at City University of New York
and then built and directed an

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organization called face the
music.

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The country's, only youth music
program dedicated to works by

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living composers.
He himself is a creative

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composer and sound designer
Specializing in contemporary and

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experimental.
Genres on the business side,

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Massa got his MBA from Berkeley
Haas and now works as a senior

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consultant at ey Parthenon vasu.
Welcome to the show.

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Thanks, Jessica.
I'm so glad to be here talking

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to you.
So, New York City has clearly

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shaped you in so many ways.
What was it like for a kid?

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Who loved music to grow up in
the Arts?

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Capital of the world?
It was quite an adventure.

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I mean, There's so much there
and I'm so tremendously

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fortunate to have been able to
grown up there.

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You know, that's one of those
things that people don't really

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get to choose.
They don't get to choose where

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they grow up.
And so it was an incredible gift

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to, to have that experience
because there were, there were

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so many opportunities and so
many of them either free or

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low-cost.
And so it created this

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incredible playground, where
basically the entire city itself

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was Was like an art sandbox.
Yeah, I'm just super grateful to

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have had that experience.
How would you describe your own

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journey through musical genres
as a performer and a composer?

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I guess that would begin with my
first introduction to quote,

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formal music training.
It was with my 12th birthday.

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I had received my first piano
lesson, you know, it was a

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classical piano lesson and That
was my first connection to a

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musical genre that I felt like I
had some sort of maybe control

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over or rather something that
had in a control over me.

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And at that point that was kind
of like my only conception of

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what being a musician meant to
be maybe a formally classical

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trained pianist and at that
point I remember wanting to even

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be a solo classical artists that
Faded rather quickly though when

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I became a teenager and was
really fortunate to go to a

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major Performing Arts High
School in New York and quickly

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became exposed to so many
different kinds of music.

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And when I became a teenager
began playing in rock bands, and

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then began playing a lot of
musical theater and started

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improvising around that age.
And so my journey as a creative

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musician has always been
evolving, and I credited it To

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those experiences as a New York
City kid.

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During your time, as director of
face, the music, you

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transformed, the annual
programming to be 90% music of

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living composers who identified,
as either by POC women or queer.

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What did this mean for you?
It meant that I was learning to

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really listen to the needs of
the organization and we had hit

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that metric or Mark, you know,
for lack of a better word and

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during the 1819 season.
And it was the result of

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listening to what my students
needed listening to what my

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staff conductors were interested
in.

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And really listening to what, I
think the community of New York

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City was craving, which was
platforming artists and

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connecting artists to students
for whom students could really

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see themselves in.
And so, for me it was it was

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kind of like this organic Like
process of stop trying to be or

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do what an organization might
traditionally aspire to do, and

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do more of what the members of
the community were really

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craving.
What did it mean for the

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students?
I think it was transformational

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for all of them.
I mean, this was a program that

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served New York City
metropolitan kids.

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So so kids from, you know, the
greater New York City metro area

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including parts of Long Island.
And New Jersey Westchester

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whatnot.
And so, I think for the

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students, for many of them, they
had expressed to me directly and

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in other ways that it kind of
gave them a transformational

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experience to work with creative
artists and to work with

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creative musicians for whom they
could see themselves in.

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And I think for me to hear that
and to see that change unfold

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was really impactful because I
myself, Self was in New York

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City kid, very much in their
shoes growing up.

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Benefiting from many of the free
or cheaply available wonderful

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resources throughout New York
City.

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You know, it's kind of emotional
for me at times actually the see

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that kind of impact on the
educational level?

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As well as the creative level?
You are at face, the music for

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close to a decade.
How when did this idea of

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potentially going to business
school appear on the map?

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How It come to you.
And how did you choose Berkeley

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that to and itself was was a bit
of a gradually unfolding

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journey?
I think the seed was first

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planted, maybe perhaps myself in
January 2016.

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When I took the reins of face,
the music as the Director.

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And in that position, I was kind
of thrown in charge of an annual

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budget and managing both it
Administrative production and

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artistic staff.
And as well as leading a

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community of about 200 students
and all their parents, and I was

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like, well, I wonder if maybe in
the future some sort of

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business, or managerial
training, might be good for me

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to do a better job at that job.
And I had kind of just let it

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simmer in the back of my mind
for about 12 to 18 months before

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I really picked it up again and
Around that time.

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So maybe at this point it was
mid 2018, early, 2018.

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Rather I realized, hey, I'm
actually really excited by the

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strategy portion of what I had
done at face.

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The music.
So scaling and refining and

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strengthening the nonprofit side
of things and kind of elevating

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the the operational and
organizational structure so that

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it could actually just flat.
Form better education and better

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creativity all around and
actually found that process

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itself to be quite creative and
whites may be organic and and

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perhaps even collaborative.
And so that's when I started to

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more, seriously, think about
business school and I did some

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research and I realized, okay.
If I'm going to go to business

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school, I have to begin to think
about it, in a very MBA way

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actually.
Well I've got to maximize my

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output soul.
Me, you know, do use the

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standardized tests and get as
high of a score on it as I can.

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And let me try to go to both the
best possible school.

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That also really speaks to me as
an individual, and it took a

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while, I'm not going to lie.
It took me two attempts, and

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multiple standardized testing
attempts, and eventually got

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there, and eventually landed at
the best possible place that I

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actually wanted to be at, which
was UC Ali, what's the

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transition been like coming from
New York City and having having

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that such a big imprint on your
life and now being in the Bay

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Area that has been truly
life-changing for me.

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So growing up as a city kid, we
kind of many of us grow up with

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this idea.
This image of California being

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this like mythical legendary
land that All is New Yorkers

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need to make our way over to
eventually at some point of Our

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Lives or at least many of us do.
And that was certainly the case

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for me as well.
I had never lived for the long

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term in another place, besides
New York City.

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And I think it was because of in
California's had so much impact

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on American and therefore,
International culture through

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the commercial music business
and SoCal through Hollywood and

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then over the past couple of
decades, obviously.

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The tech scene here in the Bay
area.

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So, I had always grown up
thinking of California and and

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just thinking of the sunshine
and thinking of the water and

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thinking of the shore.
And when I got out here, all of

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those things, kind of hit me at
once.

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I mean first and foremost is the
wildfires.

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Hit me and that's when I
realized.

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Wow, I mean with such stunning
beauty comes also the reality of

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Nature and also the reality of
what, you know, our world Facing

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as well.
But I ended up, for example,

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leading the hiking Club at
Berkeley Haas and I had actually

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never been on a hike before in
my entire life.

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Now I probably walked more than
anybody else.

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Being a native, New Yorker and
walking around everywhere.

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I feel like my entire being had
just kind of dissolved and

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crumbled in front of the, of
this nature that we're

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surrounded by, you mentioned
commercials and consumerism.

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And how A lot of that has
stemmed from California and

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spread across the u.s. and
across the world.

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Your current creative project
uses public domain, video

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footage with you, adding
original sound to it, you

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described it as sonically
painting.

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What you see confronting themes
of consumerism advertising and

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need what inspired this project.
I was taking core marketing at

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UC Berkeley and confronted, you
know, multiple times.

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Week with ways to increase
engagement and ways to increase

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sales and then at the same time,
it was around December 2020.

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And I was trying to play with
ways to revitalize, my own

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creative practice, and I've
always thought of creativity as

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a practice.
And one day, I was watching a TV

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show is actually Hannibal, which
I highly recommend and there was

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a scene in In the third season,
where one of the characters is

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walking across an Italian church
or Cathedral and the sound

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design, it was just literally,
just just, like, painting.

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The Sound was painting, what was
being displayed on screen?

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And I was so moved by that and
so I immediately started

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researching ways to get
compelling video footage in my

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lap and I discovered archive.org
and the many sources of video

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footage that are there.
And I was really Rock by a

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collection of reels of classic,
mid-century black and white

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television commercials.
And when I was watching them, I

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was experiencing all the many
things that I was studying in my

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core classes.
My core MBA classes at UC

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Berkeley as well as I think
confronting my own role, as a

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consumer, as an MBA, as an
American with all these powerful

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forces and I was just so,
immediately compelled to start

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painting sonically, what I was
seeing What do you hope the

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listeners will gain when they
hear and experience these Sonic

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paintings?
I'm hoping that they can

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experience it.
First of all, on the multi

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sensory level that it is both
audio and visual.

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I'm hoping also that
experiencing the two together

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would help listeners reflect on
the contents of consumerism

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capitalism energy, Shin buying
more and more and more waste

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production.
I hope it would help listeners

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confront both the severity of
what we're up against as well as

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approach it with a sense of
childlike lightheartedness.

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I mean because we have 24 going
to try to turn things around, or

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make a shift towards more
sustainable future.

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Yes, there's an urgency, but if
we think of it as just so

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utterly depressing, we might not
want to confront to the hole.

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So if we can bring a sense of
creative play to it, I think I

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would be happy of listeners.
Walk away with that.

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That's an excerpt from shut off
your eyes volume 1.

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It's track number for entitled
scenes from a memory and The

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Full Experience is up on
YouTube.

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You really have to experience
this album with the visual

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context.
I don't want to give away too

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much, but this particular scene
involves a boy, a man and a

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coveted.
Box of Cracker Jacks.

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I have to say when I listen to
it at the same time I felt this

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kind of sinister foreboding
theme but then there were many

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moments when I laughed out loud
to think especially with these

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older commercials and there's
consumerism and there's also

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these social constructs of, you
know, this type of person should

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be doing this type of thing and
there's a lot of history in

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there that I think.
You are commenting on in a very

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fresh way.
Thank you.

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Let's pause for a moment to
reflect on this question.

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How do you social constructs
affect how your seen in the

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world outside of Hosting this
podcast?

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I partner with leaders in the
workplace as they rise up,

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perhaps you've gotten a
promotion.

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I landed a new role or taken on
a lot more responsibility and

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you need a trusted sounding
board to support you as you

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support your team.
I coach individuals and

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Leadership teams to rise to the
challenge with my a and blend of

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analytical and creative.
If any of this intrigues, you

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reach out to me at Jessica
one.com.

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Now, back to the show, how did
you land on, man?

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And Consulting as your next
iteration of that strategy work.

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I think it's because when I was
director of face the music

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during that time, I realized
that I had a passion and a skill

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for strategic problem solving
that.

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I actually never knew that I
ever had, and never thought as a

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teenager, as a New York city
musician.

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I never once imagined that, I
would be into that.

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And then as I went through
business school, as it turns

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out, I had a passion.
Also for things like finance,

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and for things like developing
Frameworks to solve specific

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problems.
Things, all of which that for me

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as a New York city musician
growing up, I had always kind of

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sectioned those things off for
being for someone else and not

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being for me.
And so through this process of

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self-discovery, I was
researching will what our roles

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or Or sectors that I could kind
of apply strategic problem

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solving to.
And there are so many and so

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many sectors require that.
And so there are so many needs

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for that, including the
nonprofit world and whatnot.

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But I kind of wanted to sink my
teeth into like a more rapid

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fire sector and I wanted to be
solving different things at, you

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know, within a year.
I wanted to be confronted with

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different Industries and a
variety of problems and so

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Management consulting always
seemed to me like that's the

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best possible initial output and
so far, I would agree with that.

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It's only been about 5 months
for me, but I've already had to

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learn about things that I knew
nothing about.

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And I've had to get good at them
very quickly and there's always

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been a part of that, you know,
so being confronted with

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something new and figuring it
out to the best possible extent

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that I can.
But I've always been intrigued

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by I Kind of like the challenge.
I like the excitement.

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I like the I like the moments
when I feel like I can't do this

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and I'm really bad at it and
what am I get up?

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Get myself into and then I step
away, I take a breath and maybe

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go for a walk and then I'm able
to come back to it with a fresh

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perspective.
Or I take that frustration, and

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then I go sit at the piano and
reports of it.

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I wanted the variety and I
wanted to complexity.

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How do you think your life as a
creative prepared?

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You to go into Consulting?
I think is creatives.

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Especially for those of us who
have tried to or who have built

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great of careers.
We're kind of like the original

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entrepreneurs, there's no
template for what we do.

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There might be people who have
qualities or who have built.

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Careers that have elements of
what we want.

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And maybe at times we think that
we want to be just like one of

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our role models.
But in actuality we can't

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because we are ourselves.
We are our individuals.

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And so we are the original
entrepreneurs in an area where

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there is actually very little
Financial benefit.

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And so we're doing it for a
different reason.

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And we're doing it for
self-fulfillment.

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We're doing it because we need
the therapy.

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P.f. being seen and being
identified in that way.

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And so we're kind of figuring it
out for ourselves.

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And I think that at least for
many management, Consultants,

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your kind of, thrown into a
project, a new project, a new

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scenario, new client, new
sector, and you have to kind of

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figure it out and I think
creatives actually have a

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tremendous amount of skill set.
And that field of just being

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thrown into a new situation.
Ation and figuring it out,

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whether it is for Creative
building, a medium to long-term

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career, whether it's approaching
a new collaboration or whether

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it's trying to figure out that
new plugin for this new kind of

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music software that you're
fiddling around with because the

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demands of Distributing music
require it.

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So there are a lot of
connections between the two

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besides your work in Consulting
and in music, you are a

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meditation.
Practitioner now this meditation

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connect to the other areas of
your life.

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Meditation has given me a
foundation, I think for

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experiencing and connecting with
both of these areas of my life.

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I started meditating in 2008 and
it was actually because my piano

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teacher at the time, had
suggested that I take a course

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on breathing and meditation.
So, in 2008, I was coming back

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to Formal classical piano
studies after taking about a

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three year break when I'd
finished high school I stopped

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all classical studies and I was
working as a freelance pianist

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primarily as a vocal accompanist
in musical theater and rock, and

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00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,000
pop and many other genres, then
I was coming back to classical

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piano in order to actually do a
music degree at CUNY, which I

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ended up self designing.
But when I was sitting at the

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piano, my teacher would notice
that I was really tight and

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00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:44,300
tense and she had suggested.
Hey, why don't you take this

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course on meditation and
breathing breath work.

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And so, I did and I was 21.
It was a summertime and I took

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it and I was like, wow, this is
incredible.

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Incredibly liberating and I
basically never stopped from

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that moment.
My practice evolved into a

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number of different ways and
it's primarily over the past,

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decade have been focused on
practical.

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ACTA sitting in the Tara bada
tradition and I've been very

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fortunate to also be working,
you know, privately with a

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teacher who's helped me refine
and and deepen my practice.

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But it's really given me this
Foundation, almost this stage of

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which to receive the different
Joys and challenges of both

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being a musician and a
Management Consultant because

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they're both and so it's helped
me. he receive and respond in

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almost like an agile way in
which I can open up to be ready

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with almost like an
unconditional friendliness to

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whatever is thrown at me, that
doesn't mean that like I'm

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totally calm all the time but
it's helped me develop tools to

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respond to the many things that
pop up what has fueled you to

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keep going in both the business
world and as a creative, I think

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The gradual realization that I
am not just a musician or am I

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just a business person or
Management Consultant and that

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I'm actually something different
maybe not even exactly 50% of

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the to the first thing that I
had ever wanted to be when I was

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a child.
First thing I ever wanted to be

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was an artist a visual artist
and then I recall actually when

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I got into kindergarten I wanted
to be a lawyer and so and so

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forth, you know?
there's always been this

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00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,600
titrating between wanting to be,
or do something or have this

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00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,600
identity as a creative and
having or being identified as

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somebody whom I consider can
kind of interact with the world

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of humans or the material world
rather and even so, you know, in

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high school I wanted to be a
professional musician and then

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when I first started college, I
wanted to actually focus on

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social sciences and so there's
Always been this.

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What I call titrating between
the two to the point where now

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after having had a professional
music career and now embarking

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00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:25,100
upon a professional business
career, I feel like I'm kind of

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hovering between the two and
creating this middle path for

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00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,700
myself.
What I have noticed is my

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00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:37,200
musical creativity.
Needs the tension that I develop

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00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,700
or experience from other parts
of my life So it needs kind of.

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It's the creativity is actually
fueled by some of the work that

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I do as a Management Consultant
or as a business person and as a

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business person, I think that my
ability to perhaps solve or

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00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,300
articulate or work, through
problems is heavily influenced

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00:25:01,300 --> 00:25:05,500
by my creativity as a musician.
And so really I'm at this point

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00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:08,700
where I can't have one without
the other, they really

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complement and Support each
other.

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What advice do you have for
people who are pursuing or are

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00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:19,600
thinking of pursuing an
ampersand life, I'd have to

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Broad or maybe there are two
broad areas that I would suggest

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looking at.
So one is the introspective and

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00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,000
to would be perhaps the
Strategic.

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So on the introspective side, do
your inner work, do your inner

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00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:39,500
reflecting and whatever way that
is for you, whether it's going

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00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:43,300
for a Like or whether it's being
by the water or whether it's

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00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:48,000
being surrounded by the people,
you love and use that inner

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00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,900
inspiration to dive deeper into
questioning and answering like

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00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:56,200
who it is that you really are
and how you want to be seen and

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00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,300
identified and then secondly on
the Strategic side, I think it

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00:26:00,300 --> 00:26:04,100
is important to actually figure
out a game plan to make that

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00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:06,900
happen.
You can pull up like a digital

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00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:11,700
whiteboard or a real whiteboard
Breakout some spreadsheets or

381
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:17,000
maybe even just a Google doc and
actually jot down your ideas

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00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,200
shot down a plan.
Take note of people who have

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00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:25,500
developed careers or developed
things that inspire you and if

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00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:28,900
you can reach out to them and
figure out how it is that they

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00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:31,800
got to that point.
What do you think should be in

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00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,300
the Ampersand Manifesto?
I would look at the Ampersand

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00:26:35,300 --> 00:26:38,700
manifest to in perhaps three
ways.

388
00:26:38,700 --> 00:26:44,400
There's And it's building a bit
off of my previous response.

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00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:50,200
So one there's the inner to
their strategic and then three

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00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,300
there's I think the communal.
So on the inner side obviously

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00:26:54,300 --> 00:26:56,800
you've got to do your inner
reflecting to figure out what is

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00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,600
truly most important to you on
the strategy side?

393
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,900
It's important to I think make
that game plan because you're

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00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:07,800
actually creating something
that's unique and in many ways

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00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,100
has never been done before.
And then three in the communal,

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00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:14,700
you've got to think about how
your path.

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00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:17,400
The passage you're forging is
actually affecting the people

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00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:18,800
around you.
You know, whether it's your

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00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,900
immediate family or whether it's
your colleagues at work or other

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00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:26,000
multiple layers of community
vasu.

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00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,600
It's been such a pleasure
talking with you today, folks.

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00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,300
You can check out vassos, new EP
on YouTube at vasu panicker.

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00:27:34,900 --> 00:27:40,000
And on Instagram, one vasudevan
will also link to these He's in

404
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,800
the show notes.
If you liked this show hit,

405
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,200
like, subscribe and share with
your friends and fellow

406
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,200
ampersands.
I had a chance to reflect on my

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00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,400
conversation with vasu and I
wanted to share some of my

408
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,500
takeaways with you one.
I love this idea of creatives as

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00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:03,300
the original entrepreneurs and
especially thinking about the

410
00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:07,400
very transferable skill set of
being able to be thrown into

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00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,700
something new and just figuring
it out.

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00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:14,400
I've worked at several startups
myself and this skill always

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00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,800
comes up when we're hiring.
We need to remember that

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00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,300
creatives aren't just skilled at
piano or performance but at a

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00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:26,800
more fundamental level of being
able to move forward in a space

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00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:33,200
of discomfort to in our society,
we often talk about feeding our

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00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:38,000
creative sides, which tend to be
more starved for attention, but

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00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,700
there's also an opportunity Tea
for creatives to feed their

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00:28:41,700 --> 00:28:44,500
analytical strategic or business
side.

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00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:50,100
Whole human beings have
multi-dimensional sides and for

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00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:53,800
lifelong Learners and ampersands
and might be about developing

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00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,500
what's under development three.
I loved vasus framework for the

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00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:01,500
Ampersand.
Manifesto the inner work, the

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00:29:01,500 --> 00:29:05,500
Strategic, and the communal.
I'm picturing this visually, as

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00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:10,100
concentric circles building our
I think this is a great way to

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00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:13,800
think about my own a sand life
and which of these areas might

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00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,400
warrant more attention at the
moment.

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00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:20,700
It's important to say that on
the strategy side, be careful

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00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:25,700
about, not trying to maybe
completely emulate, or try to

430
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:28,700
copy or imitate what you see in
other people.

431
00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:31,900
Because the truth is, it's
figuring out your own

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00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:35,500
individuality that I think will
help you shine more