How a First Gen Immigrant Broke the Mold with Veronique Kherian, Photographer, Cheese Evangelist, and Classical Singer

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It was, of course, a low time in
the legal profession and so, not

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a lot of law firms were hiring.
And I ended up working behind a

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cheese counter in a very, very
small shop and restaurant, and

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that's where a whole new world
of artisan cheese opened up for

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me, it was incredible.
What fuels, a multi passionate

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life, I'm Jessica one.
And in this podcast, I interview

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people who straddled two,
completely different worlds, I

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call them a Sands, and And we
are collectively designing, the

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Ampersand manifest.
I am so excited to be talking

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with veronique carrion.
She is a San francisco-based

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photographer, she's evangelist
and classical singer.

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She studied economics and French
at Wellesley and taught English

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in Normandy.
France, after returning to the

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US to earn her JD, she grew her
law practice Focusing on

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intellectual property, when a
life-altering stint as a

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cheesemonger, brought her into
the Forefront of artisan cheese

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with her blog.
Miss cheesemonger, currently she

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manages the social media for a
local San Francisco, cheese,

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shop and runs her highly
sought-after portrait

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photography business.
She sings with local opera

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companies and choruses and has
developed an ongoing project,

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combining her love of song and
artist.

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As and cheese called Miss
cheesemonger sings Vero.

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Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me

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here.
Jessica, I'm so excited to see

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you and to be here, I'm also
excited so you and I know each

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other through the Bay Area,
singing community.

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And you also took my headshots
last year, which I absolutely

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adore growing up as a kid on the
East Coast, what did you imagine

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your adult life to be like, and
did it in?

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Singing photography and cheese
growing up in New Jersey and

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Virginia raised by an immigrant
family from Vietnam.

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I 100% thought I was going to be
a lawyer when I grew up and

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that's why I studied economics
in college and that's why I

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tried to have a very serious
childhood.

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I did a lot of reading when I
was a kid, I would read

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something like a book a week.
When I was 10 years old, I did

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always have music in my My life,
I took piano lessons from first

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through 12th grade and I did
actually always have dance

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growing up.
My sister took ballet tap

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lessons, but then when we grew
into adolescence we both took on

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Irish step dancing and that was
something we.

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Got really intense about my
sister and I are very

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competitive people and sometimes
we danced against each other and

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a lot of times we danced with
each other, but we We loved

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music.
And so I knew somehow music was

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going to figure in my life as an
adult, but I didn't know what

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form it was going to take.
I always thought I was going to

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work in a big city like New York
and climbed the elevator every

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day into a skyscraper when be a
big names corporate lawyer.

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I did not anticipate anything
like my life is today at all,

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and you have done.
The lawyer thing to I did I

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Think this was a combination of
my parents dreams and hopes and

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expectations for me and
something that I was exposed to

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growing up.
I thought that that's what

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grown-ups did.
They wore a suit and they went

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to an office every day.
I thought that's what my life

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was going to be.
Like it was actually when I

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first arrived at law school at
my very first class which was

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property law.
When I realized that this is

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probably not how I wanted to
live my life.

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Life law school was a really
challenging time in a lot of

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ways.
Intellectually, of course, it

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was new level of stimulation for
me and and competition.

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And deep level of studying that
I was not really accustomed to,

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I would wake up at six in the
morning and study from Seven

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until 11:00 at night.
And I knew that that was not

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probably the best way to spend
my time.

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I studied quite a lot.
But after the first year, I

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decided that I needed to devote
some of those Those hours in my

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day to something, I truly loved,
I had always loved singing on

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some level but never really
studied it deeply.

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And I figured that this was the
time to do it.

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I could carve out maybe an hour
and a half of my day to go take

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voice lessons and to join a
chorus.

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So that's what I did.
I took my first classical

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singing lessons then and joined,
I think it was called the DC

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Women's Chorus, and that was a
wonderful, wonderful escape from

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from the rigors of Law School.
These murders.

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That hyper-competitive
environment of law school, kind

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of forced me to reassess.
What was really important to me

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and music really won out and the
calculus and then after law

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school studied, for the bar exam
took that in San Diego.

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And while waiting for results,
spent many, many hours, looking

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for a job.
It was, of course, a loti I'm in

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the legal profession and so not
a lot of law firms were hiring.

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And I ended up working behind a
cheese counter in a very, very

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small shop and restaurant and
that's where a whole new world

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of artisan cheese opened up for
me, it was incredible.

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The people the craftsmanship
Behind these wheels of cheese

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and the community that cheese
was able to, to build around

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itself was wonderful, beautiful.
And I still, I'm so enamored

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with it today.
So, back in 2009, you started

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your blog Miss cheesemonger, and
this was fairly early days for a

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strong online presence.
How has the blog grown and

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evolved these past, 14 years,
when I started, I found maybe

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three other cheese blogs online.
I'm in touch with two of the

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blog writers, it's not you.
It's Bri Kirsten Jackson and

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Madonna fromage.
Taniya Darlington.

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We've kept in touch Blogging has
definitely evolved since then.

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It used to be more of a
journaling format.

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And that's kind of how I use the
blog early on to document.

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What I was learning behind the
cheese counter writing about new

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cheeses, as I studied them and
to kind of organize my thoughts,

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it was not really meant for a
large audience who is meant for

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myself.
As I studied later though, I

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think we reached a sort of
golden age of blogging, where

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there were were sponsorships and
special blogger events.

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There still are these things but
I think they have toned down

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quite a bit since then.
And there was a period, when I

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really turned up the blogging I
was coming out with a new post

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every week.
That was replete with a big

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photography spread and multiple
cheeses and multiple condiments.

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That wasn't crazily.
Time intensive work but on top

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of that I was attending events
left and right.

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Only for bloggers and content
creators at restaurants and

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hotel openings, and Wineries.
And it was, it felt like it felt

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like Disneyland unreal and
wonderful and very strange

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because as soon as food arrived,
you would get like 50 people

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trying to photograph it all at
the same time.

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So we wouldn't be able to eat
anything until like 45 minutes

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later.
It was wild.

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My husband hated going to those
things because As he said, we

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can't eat anything.
We just have to take photos.

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So did the cheese proceed the
photography or did they kind of

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come together and it seems like
also singing kind of came up in

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that time as well?
What was the order of

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operations?
Well I started my cheese blog

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with a point and shoot camera.
That's all I had.

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And let's see that was 2009 or
so 2010 a few years later.

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Around 2013.
When the blog was picking up

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steam and I wanted to gain more
of a following.

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I ordered my first DSLR camera
and started taking that around

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with me everywhere every single
day.

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Without fail, I would take at
least two dozen photos and try

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to edit them around that time.
2013 2014 is also when I started

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performing and shows like operas
and operettas and so we have a

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lot of downtime backstage and
when we're Ting for our cues and

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whatnot.
So I figured I'd fill that time

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with photography practice.
So I was already in the habit of

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taking my camera around with me
everywhere.

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I started taking it back stage
to try to document this new and

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fascinating world of stage life
makeup the costumes backstage,

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bander all that, it was
beautifully colorful and alive

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and I wanted to see what I could
capture of that and then people

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just started asking me to take
their portraits here and there I

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started taking very low-key
headshots with people outside

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and found that the world of
Photography.

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Well, I'd been practicing it on
my own took on a whole new level

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of work and meaning when I
involve a subject that I could

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photograph and so I started
looking into off-camera Flash

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and from there looked into
strobe lighting and a studio and

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everything just kind of
snowballed.

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From there all because I was
trying to practice photography

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for the sake of my cheese blog
but it also allowed for me to

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connect with people in ways.
I never thought possible.

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This must have been quite a
leap, having gotten your JD and

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pass the bar and you're growing
this law practice.

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And now these worlds of cheese
and photography and Opera keep

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presenting themselves, how did
you Commit to the leaf.

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I took a couple of years, to
really say to myself that I am

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not going to practice law
anymore and I'm going to devote

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myself to being an artist.
Essentially, I had to go through

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this sort of mental hurdle.
I think I had grown up thinking

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that art or music it were for
your free time, whereas

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something serious was meant for
work hours of the day.

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So I really just had to let that
go.

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At go.
And and realize that I could

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earn or sort of living through
writing photography creation as

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opposed to office work and
creating Word document.

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After Word document, it did take
some time, I talked a lot about

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it with my spouse, my siblings,
they're a sort of validation or

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approval meant a lot to me, and
they told me to go for it.

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So especially my husband he Was
very supportive of me, devoting

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myself to art as long as he
could see, I was happy and

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continuing to take it seriously
as a business.

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It wasn't just something I was
doing for fun.

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I had to treat my art like a
business basically.

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And once I was able to do that,
I could let go of the other

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business of law.
Yeah, it seems that the core for

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all of these Pursuits, you're
very much an entrepreneur and

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And there's so much creativity
in each of these businesses and

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also how they connect and
interact with each other.

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Let's take a short break to
reflect on this question.

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How do your creative Pursuits?
Connect and interact with each

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other outside of Hosting this
podcast?

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I partner with leaders in the
workplace as they rise up.

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Perhaps you've gotten a
promotion landed, a new role or

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taken on a lot more
responsibility.

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And you need a trusted sounding
board to support you as you

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support your team.
I coach individuals and

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Leadership teams to rise to the
challenge with my a and blend of

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analytical and creative.
If any of this intrigues, you

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reach out to me at Jessica
one.com.

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Now, back to the show, see you
describe yourself as a huge

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Francophile and you are this
way.

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Even from an early age.
How did your passion an affinity

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for French culture grow over the
years?

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Well, my parents are from
Vietnam and so they grew up in a

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French education system, they
were taught in French and they

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had that connection to the
culture and when a lot of my

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family members left Vietnam, a
handful of them settled in

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France.
It's as well and we were always

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able to keep in contact.
I know before I was born, my

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parents were casting around
looking for name possibilities.

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They did tap that French
contingent of our family and

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asked for their ideas.
And that's how I ended up with

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this French name of veronique.
I think I was sort of Born to

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Love France, but As I Grew
Older, I started learning the

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language.
Continue through High School.

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I still remain very close
friends with my high school.

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French teacher, Madame pizanno.
She's a wonderful friend.

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A second mother, I majored in
French in college, I studied

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abroad.
My husband is French will be

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married for 14 years, this week,
actually.

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So it has figured a lot into my
work especially with cheese.

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It's great to be able to connect
with French cheese makers and

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French cheese folks.
In their language, I've gotten

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to meet some Cheese makers in
Normandy, for instance, where my

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husband is from.
We visited Camembert.

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It's actually a town and
Camembert.

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The cheese is made just outside
of that town.

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It's great to be able to connect
to them with their language.

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So it sounds delicious.
Let's talk about Miss

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cheesemonger, sings.
So your recital series that

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pairs classical vocal music with
artisan cheese.

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What have you learned from
curating?

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And performing in Shows I've
learned about the importance of

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teamwork and developing the
right team.

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I have a wonderful cheese
partner, his name is Ray bear.

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He's the owner of cheese Plus in
San Francisco and he was on

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board with this cheese recital.
Idea, ever since I presented it

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to him from the very, very
beginning.

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I can't imagine working with
anyone else to bring these

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Cheese's to the city or wherever
I'm performing.

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He works with me too.
To curate the selection of

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cheeses to match the music that
I'm singing his dream was to be

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a rock guitarist and so he can
relate to the connection between

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food and music and creativity
and doing something new.

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I definitely did not think
anybody was going to come to a

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cheese recital because it was,
it was a strange idea to me, but

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I remember walking into my first
venue, which was in the basement

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of a church.
Friend of mine was managing the

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site and she said that there
were 50 seats.

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And I remember thinking, I hope
I can feel 50 seats and we ended

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up having some overflow.
I think there were maybe 60

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people and we had to squeeze
some tables into the back.

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I appreciate her very much for
telling me that I could easily

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fill those seats and I was
likely to sell out, she was

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right.
And then after that we tried a

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slightly larger venue which I
think had About 75 seats filled

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up and then we overflowed again.
We had almost 90 people at that

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concert so it's just been
amazing to learn about about my

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audience and work with them,
every time I like interacting

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with them during the concert so
I can see the kinds of

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questions.
They're, they're curious about

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what they want to know about
cheese and what they want to

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know about music cheese and
music.

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They might seem like esoteric
Concepts but if you present it

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in a way that's engaging for
people Whole new world of each

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realm opens up and it's
exciting.

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It's exciting for them as it's
exciting for me.

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I learn about cheese and music
every time.

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What do you think is the
intersection between classical

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singing photography and cheese?
Like if we were kind of looking

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at a Venn diagram?
What's at the center?

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I think all of these subjects
are are ones that any one person

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can spend.
A lifetime learning about their

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sort of endless subject.
Someone can devote their entire

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life to cheese and not know
everything about it.

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Same thing with music, same
thing with Photography, they are

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all such nuanced, technical
skills that allow us to create

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something beautiful and also
connection with an audience.

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That's I think the thing that
draws them all together, I have

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met such incredible people in
all of those realms.

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Eames tease people are
incredibly quirky and welcoming

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and Brilliant and Technical if I
didn't say that already, and

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that's the same with music and
that's the same with

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photography.
A current project of yours is an

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audio-visual recording of a song
cycle.

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Five of the seven Elizabethan
lyrics by Roger, quilter, you're

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creating little vignettes like
music videos for each song, what

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inspired you to experiment with
creating visual narratives

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around music?
Well, that comes back to having

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a great team.
Several years ago, I met this

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wonderful video.
Guy Alex, Cruz Vergara.

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I tapped him too.
To video one of my cheese

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recitals just a very
straightforward recording but

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afterwards we started talking
and I realized that he's

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actually a deeply creative guy.
He's a lot of fun to be with,

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he's quirky and he's
increasingly technical, I've

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watched him develop his skills
over the years and he's

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wonderful videographer and
cinematographer right now.

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I just knew I wanted to create
something Visual and to create

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it with him.
So that was that was a big

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impetus.
And I chose these Elizabethan

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lyrics because a I'd actually
never tried a project in

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English.
I always end up singing in

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Italian or French for whatever
reason, but this was a new

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challenge.
Also I wanted to try my hand at

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some visual narratives each song
has has its own story and they

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are all actually tied together
by one common visual device.

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But I wanted to see See how I
could explore the depths of

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emotion visually as opposed to
just musically.

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What do you hope the audience
will gain from this project kind

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of similar to the cheese
recital?

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I'm hoping that people find a
new way to connect to this

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music.
These poems their Elizabethan,

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right?
So there are several hundred

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years old people, don't really
talk, like the way we talk in

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these poems anymore.
We still however, Talk about the

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same subjects.
So what I did is I put a sort of

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modern visual narrative to go
with these Elizabethan poems.

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And I'm hoping that we can
bridge the gap between then, and

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now and show people that the
lyrics are old, that they still

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relate to a lot of the things we
go through these days.

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Hmm.
Sounds like finding common

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Humanity that Lasts throughout
time.

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What advice do you have for
people who are pursuing or

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thinking of pursuing an
ampersand life?

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Honestly, I can't imagine living
any other way.

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There's no way that we can live
in only one dimension.

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We are just being human live in
multiple Dimensions.

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We are sisters and wives and
mothers and cousins and friends.

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We always have Another way to
connect with somebody, another

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means of connecting with other
people in terms of tying

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professional lives together.
These days, it's pretty rare for

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one person to stay in one job,
their whole life or to stay in

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one company, their whole life
changes constantly a part of our

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vocabulary, and I think it
should be a more, welcome one.

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It leads to a more enriching
life, more enriching experience,

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more ways to connect and it
helps us discover new facets of

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our life.
As we get older through these

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interviews were collecting
Pearls of Wisdom to collectively

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create principles for leading a
multi passionate life.

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What do you think should be in
the Ampersand Manifesto?

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Do what you love?
Don't do what other people think

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or expect of you.
I think the only person that you

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Are beholden to is yourself.
I think that's that's the heart

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of what I do.
Everything I have tried and may

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have failed and succeeded at is
all because I have stayed true

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to my internal compass and I
fervently hope that anyone

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trying to live their Ampersand
life or their best life.

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Does the same, any tips on how
to find that Compass or how to

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Really hone in on what you even
want.

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Cultivating space in your life
is really important and space to

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allow your brain to breathe is
really important as well.

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So you can recognize what is
important to you and what isn't?

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But without the distraction or
didn't of other other voices.

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So it's almost like cultivating
boredom in some some cases Allow

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yourself to be bored.
And through that, I think your

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brain is going to naturally
gravitate towards what it wants

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to that should give you an
indication of what you should be

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doing Vero.
It's been such a pleasure

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talking to you today folks.
You can check out varro's work

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at Vero carrion.com and she's
also on Instagram at Vero,

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carrion, and also at Miss
cheese.

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Longer, and we'll link to these
in the show notes.

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If you liked this show hit,
like, subscribe and share with

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00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:30,100
your friends and fellow
ampersands, I had an opportunity

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to reflect on my interview with
the Barrow, there were so many

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incredible insights and I'm
going to try to whittle them

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down to three to share with you
one.

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If I had had a few more hours
with marrow, I would have loved

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to learn more about her
upbringing as a child of

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immigrants.
Her relationship with her sister

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and competitive, Irish step
dancing.

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Being a first generation,
Chinese Canadian American

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myself.
I understood what Vero meant

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immediately when she mentioned
immigrant family, expectations

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doctor, lawyer fessor.
These were careers, worthy of

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the sacrifices, your family made
for a better life.

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I thought it was remarkable that
Vero broke the mold but also so

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that she chose to see things
through.

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First, she knew in her heart
that law probably wasn't for her

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all the way back in that first
class in law school.

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But she stuck it out and took
and passed the bar exam and she

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practiced law while discovering
her dreams.

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I really respect this.
It's also a great reminder that

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ideas can take years to fully
form while you're on a totally

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different track.
To, I loved how ver owes

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creative process comes together
through, documenting learning

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and practicing.
And this came up several times,

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she's blogging started as a way
to document, what she was

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learning and eventually became a
business.

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Tog Rafi was a practice first,
four cheese, then for

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documenting backstage life.
At the Opera, there is portrait

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photography business started,
organically from this practice

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and then blossomed into
something much bigger.

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Three.
I've been really thinking about

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this idea of quietude and
boredom as a key to finding what

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you love, we live in such a
noisy world of inputs.

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Whether we're seeking them or
not.

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What happens when we strip away
that noise what's left and what

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do we gravitate towards in a
way?

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This reminds me a lot of
coaching.

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This is what we do in coaching
is strip away, that noise.

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Eyes and to see what's going on
in there when you have that

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Quiet Mind.
I actually didn't love cheese.

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When I was living in France at
first, but it's grown on me.