Finding Beauty in Imperfection with Dr. Sloka Iyengar, Scientist and Dancer

0:00 Science cannot give us everything. All the information there is and that dance also does not. But together they really can give us a more holistic view of the world around us. What? Fuels A multipassionate life. I'm Jessica Wan, and in this podcast I interview people who straddle 2 completely different worlds. I call them Ampersands and we are collectively designing the Ampersand Manifesto. I'm excited to be talking with Doctor Shloka Iyengar, neuroscientist and Bharatanatyam dancer, who is passionate about relieving suffering through science and the arts.

0:44 For her PhD in postdoc work, she studied the circuits in the brain that lead to the generation and propagation of epileptic seizures. She's worked with adults and children with epilepsy. To develop better therapeutic strategies, Shloka is also an award-winning baratanathium performer and practitioner who has created productions that explore the many points of convergence between dance and neuroscience. She is passionate about using dance to facilitate healing and creative aging. Shloka, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. It's so nice to be here.

1:24 Thank you for having me. For listeners who may not be familiar with Bharatanatyam as an art form, how do you typically describe it? So Bharatanatyam is a 2000 year old dance form that originated in the temples of South India. It is a traditional art form so it is transmitted through. Teacher to disciple. For the longest time it was oral tradition. A lot of that is still maintained, of course, with videos and photos that's a bit different. But the connection between the guru or the teacher whose guru is so much more than a teacher and the disciple of the student is, is a very important part of this tradition. As far as what the tradition entails, it is a codified set of movements.

2:18 Hand gestures, facial expressions and the whole point of Bharathnatyam is to communicate. So we are always communicating to the audience. There is also a very, very strong devotional aspect and the devotion could be to a deity, to a God or a goddess, but not necessarily. It could be to something that we feel is higher than ourselves, but the. Concept of devotion which is called bhakti really permeates every aspect of death. So it's much more than a performance, it is the actual learning. For me. It's how I tie my sari, it is how I iron my sari and it is all of those things that really make up not just the performance, which might be 5 minutes, but it is everything that goes into into the learning and sharing.

3:04 As a young person growing up in India, your work at an animal shelter sparked an interest in the brain. Now you've been in the field of neuroscience for almost 20 years. What is exciting and fascinating to you now as a scholar and teacher? You know, thinking about consciousness and what makes us conscious. How do we know that we are conscious? And is my puppy conscious? I think those questions of consciousness and what makes an animal conscious, it's something that I think I've gained more of an interest and now that I know more about it, but I definitely am more curious about it as a practitioner of science and dance and really trying to articulate those links, how exactly dance affects the brain and what it is in the brain.

3:49 In our nervous systems that allows and enables us to appreciate art. How does consciousness relate to Baratanatyam and even this way of life as you go about your day I? Have to say, I don't know because I don't know what is life without Baratanaty, but I mean I do see it in my older adult dancers. How? Being able to express themselves through dance changes. I don't know if it changes their consciousness, I don't know how we would know that. But I do know it changes their perception of themselves, and it changes their perception of how they view the world around them. What are some points of convergence that you see between dance and neuroscience? There's several in the way dance is taught, but for example, the pedagogy of parathynatium and neuroscience. So you know, there is a very clear structure and, you know, one might think that having this structure is stifling. You know, everything is written down. And when I was in, you know, doing my undergrad back in Ahmedabad, you know, you read all these like thick books and it makes you feel like everything that should be discovered has already been discovered. Which, right, Like, it's like, Oh my God, There's like books and books of of about the subject or that subject. But the point, which I found out later as I was doing my PhD, is that you have a framework by which you can understand the world around you.

5:14 And I think that's similar pedagogy, the framework. So Bharathyanakim gives us a framework of hand gestures or facial expressions. You can use those to tell your own stories. And similarly with neuroscience, you know, you have a framework for asking questions. So we know we have this information from the past. These are that some of the hypothesis we can have and then try and address them. Science, I don't know if it answers all questions. I mean we don't know all what all the questions are so we don't know if you know we are. We can answer all questions. But I think as as disciplines and as ways of knowledge of understanding who we are. Perhaps science is like you know 11 angle of like the quantified.

5:59 Information of the world around us. But then there's things. And I give this example to my students. I show a video of my puppy rolling around with the dirt. So he's like a spring day and he loves like rolling around. And his happiness or his joy is probably not something that can be quantified. I mean, I guess we could find ways to like. Quantify how many times he rolls, or how many times he sniffs, or whatever. But that uninhibited joy is something that perhaps science is the science that we're doing right now cannot give us. So thinking of different ways of knowledge and how they really complement each other rather than contradict, I think that's definitely one of the points of convergence. In Bharatanatyam, you know we have, we have a lot of depictions of animals.

6:43 People might have seen. Lord Lagonesia, who has his head, is that of an elephant. We depict Peacocks and there's a lot of references to nature and to animals. One of the series called Creatures on the Move. I take animals in my neighborhoods. I live in Uptown Manhattan and talk about their nervous system, how it makes, how is the nervous system? What it is. So for example, if I take a worm and think about like, what is the worm's nervous system, but also try to recreate that movement through dance. And it's been amazing to think about just what the diversity we have around us. Even in a city like New York City where somebody might think there is there, there are not that many animals. But thinking about, you know, that what makes that animal's movement unique?

7:33 The act of observation, I think is an act of love. So you have to observe like each, each like segment that's moving, you know, one after another And how could you not, right? Like how could you not be in all of the world around us? I love hearing about the storytelling aspect and how very respectful this art form is as we humans evolve from animals and we need animals in our world to survive on this planet. One of the books of Baratana ATM, it's it's called Abhinaya Darpana. And Darpana literally means a mirror. So it literally means it's a mirror of everything in the world around us. So you know, we might do it in a way that's stylized, we might do it with with props, with costumes with what. But at the end of the day, it is still a mirror of our lives and how amazing that a dance from that's 2000 years old has the framework for us to think about our lives. In your work as a scientist, you've collaborated with a wide range of people in major pharmaceutical companies, nonprofit organizations, and academia. What kind of teamwork and collaboration needs to happen to make science really work as a public good? You know, as a scientist, I will say that scientists can do much better.

8:55 So for example, one of the things is jargon, right? And you know, the jargon that we use, the words that we use may be understandable to a small set of people. For example, you know, people look studying epilepsy or seizure disorders, but may not be understandable to people that you know, don't happen to study those things. So I think jargon, making things understandable, but in a way that's not condescending. I think that's very, very important because it's, you know, it's and people can tell when you're. Being understanding, it's not, you know, whether it's in the written word or or spoken word, and that's the skill. Honestly, we're not taught. At least I wasn't taught in my graduate work. The only reason I gravitate towards that was I love words and even as a child I would like write for the Times of India.

9:40 I've always, you know, as a child I would sit and admire the shapes of words and letters and I was really privileged to have that experience growing up as a child. But it's not really training that. Scientists are given, but I think we saw what happens when we don't learn how to talk to non scientists during the pandemic. So you know, the fact that recommendations were changing wasn't because people were making things up, it was because we just know more and how do we build scientific literacy in a way that's. We're not talking down to people. We're not using jargon. And because that's the way of exclusion in a way that we're really thinking about that two way communication and not just. I'm gonna tell you about science. I think scientists just need to do a lot better as far as getting to know our audiences, learning how to communicate in a way that's respectful and not condescending. How do you think your identity as a dancer, as an artist? Has helped you as a scientist.

10:45 I mean so many things. I think the first of all is that you know that an item is a way of communication. The way that you know we're taught is it's not so much about how straight your your hands are, how you know it is. It is about that. But secondarily the first thing is that you always are communicating and I think that. Maybe in a subconscious way is always there. For example, I word got a neurology clinic working with children that have refractory epilepsy. So they may have, you know, seizure disorders from infancy and really learned how to listen first of all, even before talking, but listening to parents of children with with epilepsies And in one conversation, I remember this so well, they were asking me, oh, what did you do before this?

11:32 And then I was saying, oh, you know, post out blah, blah. And one of the, you know, the immediate reaction of the mother was that, well, you know, my child is not a rat, which is I would say the same thing if somebody said that to me if I used to pride myself on, you know, like I know how to communicate with everybody. But clearly there's always things to learn. So, like for that population, I probably shouldn't have said the things the way I did. But given that person item is always about communication, you know, you're always, it's outward in a way that is. We are taught about, you know, the sequence of events. For example, how to communicate a sequence of events through dance and what does that mean. So for example, just as an example, if I say that my friend is to my right, if I just say that, I shouldn't be doing anything else to my right because people won't know if it's my friend or if it's somebody else. So even even demarcating.

12:28 Characters and be having clarity I think it's something that we're just comes up in choreography because we have to be clear the sequence of events has to be logical. For example if through my eyes if I'm showing a house versus a mountain there has to be a difference because a house is going to be much smaller than a mountain and if I show stars they're going to be have to be even higher. So and I think that clarity that that sequence of events that is that is very very logical for a conversation or for a for a story. Really does help in science and scientific writing and communication. Let's pause here for a moment to reflect on this question.

13:09 How could you improve communication in your work to be more clear? Outside of hosting this podcast, I partner with leaders in the workplace as they rise up. Perhaps you've gotten a promotion, landed a new role, or taken on a lot more responsibility, and you need a trusted sounding board to support you as you support your team. I coach individuals and leadership teams to rise to the challenge with my Ampersand blend of analytical and creative. If any of this intrigues you, reach out to me at jessica1.com. Now back to the show. A current project of yours is Vitar, an online production where you talk about the various points of connection between the arts and the sciences.

14:03 How did this idea come to be, and what do you hope people will gain from this project? The idea, actually, it has had been around for a while, but it was last. So 2022, March, every, every March, you know, neuroscientists come together in something called the Brain Awareness Week. So it's just a week for people to share their excitement about neuroscience, about, you know, ranging from really clinical work to all sorts of things. I knew there was a lot to say, but I wanted to. Create a framework for articulating these convergences. Between Barathanatim and neuroscience there have been people looking at sciences and arts in general. But you know, what I aim to do is very specifically look at Barathanatim a, because no one else has done it in this way. And secondly, I do think Barathanatim is very unique in terms of what it is and what it gives us from what started as an idea.

14:57 Second, I should I should think about it and write about it. It has led to some really interesting collaborations. For example, I was invited to a conference last year in Denver, which was for a group of people that are caregivers. So these people, they go into homes if there are children from zero to five years old. And I was able to bring Bharathanatium and neuroscience on the same stage by thinking about caregiving through the lens of neuroscience and Bharathanatium. So amazing experience, I was able to do lullabies again bringing back. Science cannot give us everything, all the information there is and that dance also does not. But at together they really can give us a more holistic view of the world around us. So for this event, we talked about the neuroscience of caregiving and thinking about what's happening in the brain and combining it with Bharatanatyam, with lullabies, with just just so many ways in which we we give care to. People to plants to things around this and another example was thinking about learning and teaching. So you know learning and teaching and they're like huge topics in neuroscience, in psychology, in philosophy too. And I collaborated with a scientist who looks at songbirds.

16:16 He wants to understand in this particular songbird or zebra Finch, the father bird teaches the male bird and the the girl birds or the female birds can vocalize but they don't sing but they. Made for life. So the song of the boy is probably the most important thing he's gonna do because that's what attract the mating song. And he was talking about error detections trying to understand how how do they know that they've made an error. And you know he had a whole bunch of things about what particular neurons probably tell the bird that he's made an error and he should go practice. And then I was able to think more largely about learning and teaching in Bharathanatyam for this whole cycle of.

16:58 You know, we learn the perfect as much as we can. I don't know if we ever do, but then we like the whole point is to transmit and to carry on that knowledge to others. So those have been some really interesting things that have come out of this convergence. That's. Such an interesting analogy. You've been awarded fellowships to use dance for community service, the most recent one being Su Casa by the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council. A community arts engagement program that places artists and organizations at senior centers. What have you learned from this experience? First of all, a lot of things. I think my view of aesthetics or what what what I consider beautiful, what I consider symmetric, has totally changed.

17:45 Because you know, with people 65 and older, many of them may have arthritis, many of them, you know, whatever, I don't always know. And it's all beautiful. They can all do a particular hand gesture and there is still beauty in it. And I always make it a point again to say it's not about what is straight and what you know, It's about feeling. If I'm doing this gesture with my hands, and if I'm doing it with feeling, I mean it. It will be beautiful by default. I think my view of aesthetics has definitely evolved, to be quite honest. Working with them also. When I first started again, this was last year, I had no idea of how it would be received again. It's a dance form that's kind of came from a very particular cultural context. And what I always try to do is make it universal. So take aspects of of this dance form, you know, for example, the codified language of emotions, and if you all feel emotions, so it's perhaps a bit easier to relate. My job is to always make bring out the universality of this dance form.

18:47 I'm almost pleasantly surprised. I think what people get out of it is just amazing. And I, you know, I think my view of aesthetics, my view of what I can share, for example, and I think people at least like, I've been very lucky to work with people who are also very forgiving. So, for example, if I do a movement where people feel a bit unstable. They feel like they can tell me first of all, and then I can quickly adapt or, you know, do something so that they don't feel unstable. So I'm so glad that my dancers feel like they can tell me what can we do to retain the beauty, but then also make sure that, you know, my dancers feel safe and they are safe. So it's been a blessing, definitely a privilege, to work with them. You occupy such a unique space connecting these two disciplines.

19:35 What advice do you have for other ampersands who might be seeking out a deeper connection, or who hope to see their worlds intersect in a more meaningful way? From my personal experience, I would say do it because there's never gonna be a perfect time and we can always wait for when is my idea perfect? For me at least, there's never gonna be a time when I feel like I'm doing, you know? 150% on both of those things, but also finding a way to be comfortable with, you know. So if I write a small blog, blog post, I wish I could, I wish I could spend 2 hours for example, but I cannot. And what is I shouldn't say good enough because it makes it seem like it's not good.

20:21 But what are we OK with individually? And then, you know, trying because I think that's is the only way to to move ahead. The two things, at least from my journey, do it, just do it and find a way that's safe. So for example, for me it was, you know, this blog V Char and I still remember thinking, you know, if it if it's a failure, that's that's OK. You know, I would have tried I would have done something and having a version of what we're comfortable with. How are you defining success for your V char? I think the only thing I would say is if I'm having fun. And I feel like the day when I feel I don't feel excited about it is probably when I know that it's, you know, I should change things or do something else.

21:08 But as long as I'm enjoying and I'm having fun and I think it's, it's providing something to the community of, of scientists, of artists, of people who might have this convergence but don't know what to do with it. I think as long as those things are there and I think the more maybe this is a bit selfish, but if I don't have fun then I don't do it for now. It is that. I love it having fun and being true to yourself. Through these interviews we're collectively creating principles for leading a multi passionate life. What would you like to add to the Ampersand manifesto? We may not always know how a certain thing or a certain activity is gonna pan out in the future. For example, you know, when I said yes, I teach evolution at the Museum of Natural History, You know, I mean, I said yes because of course.

22:02 I mean, there's such an amazing opportunity, but I didn't know what, what else could come out of it. And looking back to where I am now, I think the ideas about evolution, about animals, about ecology, I mean, a lot of those come from teaching that course. So I think. Perhaps like enjoying the journey for what it is and not necessarily thinking about where this is gonna lead. You know, when I started taking music lessons a few years ago, I never wanted to sing in public. But I think, you know, I realized more and more I was learning music for someone who's very soft spoken. I think it's really gave me an opportunity to use my voice in a way that that was helpful in many other settings. So you know, if something is interesting, if something. Evokes joy.

22:47 There are more reasons to adored than than not. Shloka, it's been such a pleasure talking with you folks. You can check out Shloka's work at shlokaiyengar.net and we'll link to her website in our show notes. If you liked this show, hit like, subscribe and share with your friends and fellow ampersands. And if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, feel free to leave us a review. I had a chance to listen back to my conversation with Shloka and I wanted to share a few key takeaways. One, Nature and Animals are such an inspiration for both her work in dance and in science, and loved her quote. An act of observation is an act of love that made me stop in my tracks, and ever since this interview, I've been looking, listening.

23:43 Pausing. A little more in my own neighborhood in Burt, the birds, squirrels, deer. I feel their presence more, and I observe them. Two. This interview expanded my perspective by inviting me to think about my place in a long line of descendants, whether that's musicians, coaches, mothers, Asian women, Baratanatiam is. Steeped in history, And so is science in the way that research builds upon past research. History matters so much to our understanding of the world, and people have done so much work in every field that paves the way for us to explore even further.

24:31 Three I've been reflecting on my own answers to this question. What is beauty? Shloka shared that working with older adults has shifted her perspective on aesthetics. Our culture is so geared towards beauty being only associated with youth. But how do we find beauty in the imperfect, the asymmetric, the age? There is that old saying that inner beauty is more important than outer beauty, but I think you really have to look harder for inner beauty. And you have to look with more than just your eyes. It's more of a feeling, a sense and a connection. Especially if I'm not warmed up.

25:18 I mean it's like a very physically exhausting thing, so starting sometimes a bit stiff, a bit tired, but I I can feel a smile, you know, on my face, so which is amazing.