May 3, 2023
Finding Beauty in Imperfection with Dr. Sloka Iyengar, Scientist and Dancer
This week, Jessica talks with Dr. Sloka Iyengar, neuroscientist & Bharatanatyam dancer who is passionate about relieving suffering through science and the arts. For her Ph.D. and postdoctoral work, she studied the circuits in the brain that lead to the generation and propagation of epileptic seizures. She's worked with adults and children with epilepsy to develop better therapeutic strategies. Sloka is also an award-winning Bharatanatyam performer and practitioner who has created productions that explore the many points of convergence between dance and neuroscience. She is passionate about using dance to facilitate healing and creative aging.
You can check out Sloka's work at slokaiyengar.net
Are you a high achiever, a leader, or an Ampersand who's recently taken on more responsibility at work? Jessica works with people just like you. She coaches individuals and leadership teams to rise to new challenges - with a unique blend of analytical & creative approaches, plus 18 years of invaluable experience working in companies and startups.
Visit jessicawan.com or BOOK AN INTRO CALL: https://calendly.com/jessicawancoaching/intro-call-coaching
Credits
Produced and Hosted by Jessica Wan
Co-produced, edited, and sound design by Naomi Tepper
Theme music by Denys Kyshchuk and Stockaudios from Pixabay
Transcript
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Science cannot give us
everything.
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All the information there is and
that dance also does not.
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But together they really can
give us a more holistic view of
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the world around us.
What?
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Fuels A multipassionate life.
I'm Jessica Wan, and in this
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podcast I interview people who
straddle 2 completely different
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worlds.
I call them Ampersands and we
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are collectively designing the
Ampersand Manifesto.
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I'm excited to be talking with
Doctor Shloka Iyengar,
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neuroscientist and Bharatanatyam
dancer, who is passionate about
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relieving suffering through
science and the arts.
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For her PhD in postdoc work, she
studied the circuits in the
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brain that lead to the
generation and propagation of
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epileptic seizures.
She's worked with adults and
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children with epilepsy.
To develop better therapeutic
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strategies, Shloka is also an
award-winning baratanathium
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performer and practitioner who
has created productions that
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explore the many points of
convergence between dance and
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neuroscience.
She is passionate about using
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dance to facilitate healing and
creative aging.
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Shloka, welcome to the show.
Thank you.
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Thank you.
It's so nice to be here.
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Thank you for having me.
For listeners who may not be
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familiar with Bharatanatyam as
an art form, how do you
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typically describe it?
So Bharatanatyam is a 2000 year
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old dance form that originated
in the temples of South India.
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It is a traditional art form so
it is transmitted through.
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Teacher to disciple.
For the longest time it was oral
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tradition.
A lot of that is still
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maintained, of course, with
videos and photos that's a bit
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different.
But the connection between the
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guru or the teacher whose guru
is so much more than a teacher
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and the disciple of the student
is, is a very important part of
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this tradition.
As far as what the tradition
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entails, it is a codified set of
movements.
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Hand gestures, facial
expressions and the whole point
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of Bharathnatyam is to
communicate.
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So we are always communicating
to the audience.
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There is also a very, very
strong devotional aspect and the
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devotion could be to a deity, to
a God or a goddess, but not
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necessarily.
It could be to something that we
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feel is higher than ourselves,
but the.
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Concept of devotion which is
called bhakti really permeates
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every aspect of death.
So it's much more than a
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performance, it is the actual
learning.
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For me.
It's how I tie my sari, it is
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how I iron my sari and it is all
of those things that really make
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up not just the performance,
which might be 5 minutes, but it
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is everything that goes into
into the learning and sharing.
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As a young person growing up in
India, your work at an animal
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shelter sparked an interest in
the brain.
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Now you've been in the field of
neuroscience for almost 20
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years.
What is exciting and fascinating
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to you now as a scholar and
teacher?
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You know, thinking about
consciousness and what makes us
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conscious.
How do we know that we are
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conscious?
And is my puppy conscious?
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I think those questions of
consciousness and what makes an
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animal conscious, it's something
that I think I've gained more of
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an interest and now that I know
more about it, but I definitely
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am more curious about it as a
practitioner of science and
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dance and really trying to
articulate those links, how
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exactly dance affects the brain
and what it is in the brain.
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In our nervous systems that
allows and enables us to
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appreciate art.
How does consciousness relate to
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Baratanatyam and even this way
of life as you go about your day
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I?
Have to say, I don't know
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because I don't know what is
life without Baratanaty, but I
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mean I do see it in my older
adult dancers.
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How?
Being able to express themselves
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through dance changes.
I don't know if it changes their
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consciousness, I don't know how
we would know that.
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But I do know it changes their
perception of themselves, and it
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changes their perception of how
they view the world around them.
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What are some points of
convergence that you see between
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dance and neuroscience?
There's several in the way dance
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is taught, but for example, the
pedagogy of parathynatium and
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neuroscience.
So you know, there is a very
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clear structure and, you know,
one might think that having this
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structure is stifling.
You know, everything is written
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down.
And when I was in, you know,
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doing my undergrad back in
Ahmedabad, you know, you read
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all these like thick books and
it makes you feel like
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everything that should be
discovered has already been
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discovered.
Which, right, Like, it's like,
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Oh my God, There's like books
and books of of about the
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subject or that subject.
But the point, which I found out
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later as I was doing my PhD, is
that you have a framework by
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which you can understand the
world around you.
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And I think that's similar
pedagogy, the framework.
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So Bharathyanakim gives us a
framework of hand gestures or
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facial expressions.
You can use those to tell your
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own stories.
And similarly with neuroscience,
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you know, you have a framework
for asking questions.
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So we know we have this
information from the past.
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These are that some of the
hypothesis we can have and then
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try and address them.
Science, I don't know if it
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answers all questions.
I mean we don't know all what
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all the questions are so we
don't know if you know we are.
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We can answer all questions.
But I think as as disciplines
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and as ways of knowledge of
understanding who we are.
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Perhaps science is like you know
11 angle of like the quantified.
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Information of the world around
us.
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But then there's things.
And I give this example to my
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students.
I show a video of my puppy
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rolling around with the dirt.
So he's like a spring day and he
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loves like rolling around.
And his happiness or his joy is
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probably not something that can
be quantified.
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I mean, I guess we could find
ways to like.
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Quantify how many times he
rolls, or how many times he
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sniffs, or whatever.
But that uninhibited joy is
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something that perhaps science
is the science that we're doing
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right now cannot give us.
So thinking of different ways of
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knowledge and how they really
complement each other rather
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than contradict, I think that's
definitely one of the points of
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convergence.
In Bharatanatyam, you know we
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have, we have a lot of
depictions of animals.
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People might have seen.
Lord Lagonesia, who has his
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head, is that of an elephant.
We depict Peacocks and there's a
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lot of references to nature and
to animals.
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One of the series called
Creatures on the Move.
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I take animals in my
neighborhoods.
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I live in Uptown Manhattan and
talk about their nervous system,
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how it makes, how is the nervous
system?
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What it is.
So for example, if I take a worm
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and think about like, what is
the worm's nervous system, but
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also try to recreate that
movement through dance.
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And it's been amazing to think
about just what the diversity we
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have around us.
Even in a city like New York
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City where somebody might think
there is there, there are not
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that many animals.
But thinking about, you know,
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that what makes that animal's
movement unique?
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The act of observation, I think
is an act of love.
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So you have to observe like
each, each like segment that's
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moving, you know, one after
another And how could you not,
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right?
Like how could you not be in all
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of the world around us?
I love hearing about the
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storytelling aspect and how very
respectful this art form is as
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we humans evolve from animals
and we need animals in our world
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to survive on this planet.
One of the books of Baratana
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ATM, it's it's called Abhinaya
Darpana.
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And Darpana literally means a
mirror.
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So it literally means it's a
mirror of everything in the
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world around us.
So you know, we might do it in a
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way that's stylized, we might do
it with with props, with
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costumes with what.
But at the end of the day, it is
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still a mirror of our lives and
how amazing that a dance from
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that's 2000 years old has the
framework for us to think about
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our lives.
In your work as a scientist,
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you've collaborated with a wide
range of people in major
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pharmaceutical companies,
nonprofit organizations, and
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academia.
What kind of teamwork and
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collaboration needs to happen to
make science really work as a
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public good?
You know, as a scientist, I will
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say that scientists can do much
better.
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So for example, one of the
things is jargon, right?
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And you know, the jargon that we
use, the words that we use may
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be understandable to a small set
of people.
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For example, you know, people
look studying epilepsy or
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seizure disorders, but may not
be understandable to people that
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you know, don't happen to study
those things.
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So I think jargon, making things
understandable, but in a way
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that's not condescending.
I think that's very, very
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important because it's, you
know, it's and people can tell
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when you're.
Being understanding, it's not,
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you know, whether it's in the
written word or or spoken word,
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and that's the skill.
Honestly, we're not taught.
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At least I wasn't taught in my
graduate work.
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The only reason I gravitate
towards that was I love words
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and even as a child I would like
write for the Times of India.
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I've always, you know, as a
child I would sit and admire the
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shapes of words and letters and
I was really privileged to have
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that experience growing up as a
child.
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But it's not really training
that.
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Scientists are given, but I
think we saw what happens when
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we don't learn how to talk to
non scientists during the
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pandemic.
So you know, the fact that
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recommendations were changing
wasn't because people were
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making things up, it was because
we just know more and how do we
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build scientific literacy in a
way that's.
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We're not talking down to
people.
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We're not using jargon.
And because that's the way of
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exclusion in a way that we're
really thinking about that two
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way communication and not just.
I'm gonna tell you about
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science.
I think scientists just need to
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do a lot better as far as
getting to know our audiences,
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learning how to communicate in a
way that's respectful and not
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condescending.
How do you think your identity
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as a dancer, as an artist?
Has helped you as a scientist.
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I mean so many things.
I think the first of all is that
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you know that an item is a way
of communication.
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The way that you know we're
taught is it's not so much about
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how straight your your hands
are, how you know it is.
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It is about that.
But secondarily the first thing
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is that you always are
communicating and I think that.
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Maybe in a subconscious way is
always there.
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For example, I word got a
neurology clinic working with
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children that have refractory
epilepsy.
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So they may have, you know,
seizure disorders from infancy
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and really learned how to listen
first of all, even before
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talking, but listening to
parents of children with with
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epilepsies And in one
conversation, I remember this so
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well, they were asking me, oh,
what did you do before this?
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And then I was saying, oh, you
know, post out blah, blah.
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And one of the, you know, the
immediate reaction of the mother
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was that, well, you know, my
child is not a rat, which is I
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would say the same thing if
somebody said that to me if I
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used to pride myself on, you
know, like I know how to
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communicate with everybody.
But clearly there's always
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things to learn.
So, like for that population, I
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probably shouldn't have said the
things the way I did.
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But given that person item is
always about communication, you
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know, you're always, it's
outward in a way that is.
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We are taught about, you know,
the sequence of events.
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For example, how to communicate
a sequence of events through
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dance and what does that mean.
So for example, just as an
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example, if I say that my friend
is to my right, if I just say
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that, I shouldn't be doing
anything else to my right
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because people won't know if
it's my friend or if it's
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somebody else.
So even even demarcating.
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Characters and be having clarity
I think it's something that
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we're just comes up in
choreography because we have to
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be clear the sequence of events
has to be logical.
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For example if through my eyes
if I'm showing a house versus a
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mountain there has to be a
difference because a house is
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going to be much smaller than a
mountain and if I show stars
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they're going to be have to be
even higher.
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So and I think that clarity that
that sequence of events that is
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that is very very logical for a
conversation or for a for a
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story.
Really does help in science and
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scientific writing and
communication.
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Let's pause here for a moment to
reflect on this question.
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How could you improve
communication in your work to be
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more clear?
Outside of hosting this podcast,
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I partner with leaders in the
workplace as they rise up.
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00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,800
Perhaps you've gotten a
promotion, landed a new role, or
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00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,080
taken on a lot more
responsibility, and you need a
238
00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,600
trusted sounding board to
support you as you support your
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00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,080
team.
I coach individuals and
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leadership teams to rise to the
challenge with my Ampersand
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00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,560
blend of analytical and
creative.
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00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,880
If any of this intrigues you,
reach out to me at jessica1.com.
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Now back to the show.
A current project of yours is
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Vitar, an online production
where you talk about the various
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points of connection between the
arts and the sciences.
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How did this idea come to be,
and what do you hope people will
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gain from this project?
The idea, actually, it has had
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been around for a while, but it
was last.
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So 2022, March, every, every
March, you know, neuroscientists
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come together in something
called the Brain Awareness Week.
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So it's just a week for people
to share their excitement about
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neuroscience, about, you know,
ranging from really clinical
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work to all sorts of things.
I knew there was a lot to say,
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but I wanted to.
Create a framework for
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articulating these convergences.
Between Barathanatim and
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neuroscience there have been
people looking at sciences and
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arts in general.
But you know, what I aim to do
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is very specifically look at
Barathanatim a, because no one
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else has done it in this way.
And secondly, I do think
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Barathanatim is very unique in
terms of what it is and what it
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gives us from what started as an
idea.
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Second, I should I should think
about it and write about it.
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It has led to some really
interesting collaborations.
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For example, I was invited to a
conference last year in Denver,
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which was for a group of people
that are caregivers.
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So these people, they go into
homes if there are children from
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zero to five years old.
And I was able to bring
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Bharathanatium and neuroscience
on the same stage by thinking
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about caregiving through the
lens of neuroscience and
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Bharathanatium.
So amazing experience, I was
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able to do lullabies again
bringing back.
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Science cannot give us
everything, all the information
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there is and that dance also
does not.
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But at together they really can
give us a more holistic view of
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the world around us.
So for this event, we talked
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about the neuroscience of
caregiving and thinking about
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what's happening in the brain
and combining it with
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Bharatanatyam, with lullabies,
with just just so many ways in
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which we we give care to.
People to plants to things
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around this and another example
was thinking about learning and
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teaching.
So you know learning and
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teaching and they're like huge
topics in neuroscience, in
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psychology, in philosophy too.
And I collaborated with a
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scientist who looks at
songbirds.
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He wants to understand in this
particular songbird or zebra
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Finch, the father bird teaches
the male bird and the the girl
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birds or the female birds can
vocalize but they don't sing but
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they.
Made for life.
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So the song of the boy is
probably the most important
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00:16:33,530 --> 00:16:36,450
thing he's gonna do because
that's what attract the mating
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00:16:36,450 --> 00:16:38,970
song.
And he was talking about error
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00:16:38,970 --> 00:16:42,170
detections trying to understand
how how do they know that
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00:16:42,170 --> 00:16:45,410
they've made an error.
And you know he had a whole
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00:16:45,410 --> 00:16:48,890
bunch of things about what
particular neurons probably tell
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the bird that he's made an error
and he should go practice.
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And then I was able to think
more largely about learning and
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teaching in Bharathanatyam for
this whole cycle of.
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You know, we learn the perfect
as much as we can.
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I don't know if we ever do, but
then we like the whole point is
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to transmit and to carry on that
knowledge to others.
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So those have been some really
interesting things that have
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come out of this convergence.
That's.
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Such an interesting analogy.
You've been awarded fellowships
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to use dance for community
service, the most recent one
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00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,240
being Su Casa by the Lower
Manhattan Cultural Council.
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A community arts engagement
program that places artists and
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organizations at senior centers.
What have you learned from this
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00:17:34,290 --> 00:17:37,450
experience?
First of all, a lot of things.
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I think my view of aesthetics or
what what what I consider
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beautiful, what I consider
symmetric, has totally changed.
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Because you know, with people 65
and older, many of them may have
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arthritis, many of them, you
know, whatever, I don't always
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know.
And it's all beautiful.
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They can all do a particular
hand gesture and there is still
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beauty in it.
And I always make it a point
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again to say it's not about what
is straight and what you know,
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It's about feeling.
If I'm doing this gesture with
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my hands, and if I'm doing it
with feeling, I mean it.
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It will be beautiful by default.
I think my view of aesthetics
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has definitely evolved, to be
quite honest.
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Working with them also.
When I first started again, this
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was last year, I had no idea of
how it would be received again.
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It's a dance form that's kind of
came from a very particular
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cultural context.
And what I always try to do is
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make it universal.
So take aspects of of this dance
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form, you know, for example, the
codified language of emotions,
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and if you all feel emotions, so
it's perhaps a bit easier to
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relate.
My job is to always make bring
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00:18:45,050 --> 00:18:47,210
out the universality of this
dance form.
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I'm almost pleasantly surprised.
I think what people get out of
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it is just amazing.
And I, you know, I think my view
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of aesthetics, my view of what I
can share, for example, and I
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00:18:57,260 --> 00:19:00,020
think people at least like, I've
been very lucky to work with
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00:19:00,020 --> 00:19:01,900
people who are also very
forgiving.
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So, for example, if I do a
movement where people feel a bit
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00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:08,900
unstable.
They feel like they can tell me
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00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:12,020
first of all, and then I can
quickly adapt or, you know, do
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00:19:12,020 --> 00:19:13,580
something so that they don't
feel unstable.
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00:19:13,580 --> 00:19:17,260
So I'm so glad that my dancers
feel like they can tell me what
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can we do to retain the beauty,
but then also make sure that,
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you know, my dancers feel safe
and they are safe.
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So it's been a blessing,
definitely a privilege, to work
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with them.
You occupy such a unique space
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connecting these two
disciplines.
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What advice do you have for
other ampersands who might be
346
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,640
seeking out a deeper connection,
or who hope to see their worlds
347
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,280
intersect in a more meaningful
way?
348
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:52,360
From my personal experience, I
would say do it because there's
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00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:57,200
never gonna be a perfect time
and we can always wait for when
350
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,840
is my idea perfect?
For me at least, there's never
351
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,680
gonna be a time when I feel like
I'm doing, you know?
352
00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:09,550
150% on both of those things,
but also finding a way to be
353
00:20:09,550 --> 00:20:12,670
comfortable with, you know.
So if I write a small blog, blog
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00:20:12,670 --> 00:20:15,550
post, I wish I could, I wish I
could spend 2 hours for example,
355
00:20:15,910 --> 00:20:19,590
but I cannot.
And what is I shouldn't say good
356
00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:21,710
enough because it makes it seem
like it's not good.
357
00:20:21,710 --> 00:20:24,670
But what are we OK with
individually?
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00:20:25,150 --> 00:20:29,230
And then, you know, trying
because I think that's is the
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00:20:29,230 --> 00:20:34,340
only way to to move ahead.
The two things, at least from my
360
00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:37,620
journey, do it, just do it and
find a way that's safe.
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00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:41,140
So for example, for me it was,
you know, this blog V Char and I
362
00:20:41,140 --> 00:20:43,340
still remember thinking, you
know, if it if it's a failure,
363
00:20:43,340 --> 00:20:45,260
that's that's OK.
You know, I would have tried I
364
00:20:45,260 --> 00:20:50,060
would have done something and
having a version of what we're
365
00:20:50,060 --> 00:20:53,220
comfortable with.
How are you defining success for
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00:20:53,220 --> 00:20:56,340
your V char?
I think the only thing I would
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00:20:56,340 --> 00:21:01,360
say is if I'm having fun.
And I feel like the day when I
368
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:05,560
feel I don't feel excited about
it is probably when I know that
369
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,360
it's, you know, I should change
things or do something else.
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00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:13,560
But as long as I'm enjoying and
I'm having fun and I think it's,
371
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,080
it's providing something to the
community of, of scientists, of
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00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,960
artists, of people who might
have this convergence but don't
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00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,810
know what to do with it.
I think as long as those things
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00:21:23,810 --> 00:21:27,050
are there and I think the more
maybe this is a bit selfish, but
375
00:21:27,690 --> 00:21:30,370
if I don't have fun then I don't
do it for now.
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00:21:30,370 --> 00:21:34,330
It is that.
I love it having fun and being
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00:21:34,330 --> 00:21:37,730
true to yourself.
Through these interviews we're
378
00:21:37,730 --> 00:21:41,610
collectively creating principles
for leading a multi passionate
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00:21:41,610 --> 00:21:44,330
life.
What would you like to add to
380
00:21:44,330 --> 00:21:49,920
the Ampersand manifesto?
We may not always know how a
381
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,760
certain thing or a certain
activity is gonna pan out in the
382
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,360
future.
For example, you know, when I
383
00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:59,480
said yes, I teach evolution at
the Museum of Natural History,
384
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,000
You know, I mean, I said yes
because of course.
385
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,160
I mean, there's such an amazing
opportunity, but I didn't know
386
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:06,960
what, what else could come out
of it.
387
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,600
And looking back to where I am
now, I think the ideas about
388
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,560
evolution, about animals, about
ecology, I mean, a lot of those
389
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,520
come from teaching that course.
So I think.
390
00:22:17,190 --> 00:22:20,310
Perhaps like enjoying the
journey for what it is and not
391
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:23,510
necessarily thinking about where
this is gonna lead.
392
00:22:23,670 --> 00:22:26,910
You know, when I started taking
music lessons a few years ago, I
393
00:22:26,910 --> 00:22:29,310
never wanted to sing in public.
But I think, you know, I
394
00:22:29,310 --> 00:22:34,590
realized more and more I was
learning music for someone who's
395
00:22:34,590 --> 00:22:36,950
very soft spoken.
I think it's really gave me an
396
00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:40,630
opportunity to use my voice in a
way that that was helpful in
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00:22:40,630 --> 00:22:43,550
many other settings.
So you know, if something is
398
00:22:43,550 --> 00:22:46,780
interesting, if something.
Evokes joy.
399
00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:50,260
There are more reasons to adored
than than not.
400
00:22:51,260 --> 00:22:55,020
Shloka, it's been such a
pleasure talking with you folks.
401
00:22:55,020 --> 00:22:59,340
You can check out Shloka's work
at shlokaiyengar.net and we'll
402
00:22:59,340 --> 00:23:01,300
link to her website in our show
notes.
403
00:23:02,180 --> 00:23:06,180
If you liked this show, hit
like, subscribe and share with
404
00:23:06,180 --> 00:23:08,460
your friends and fellow
ampersands.
405
00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:13,820
And if you're listening on Apple
Podcasts, feel free to leave us
406
00:23:13,940 --> 00:23:17,360
a review.
I had a chance to listen back to
407
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:21,320
my conversation with Shloka and
I wanted to share a few key
408
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:26,200
takeaways.
One, Nature and Animals are such
409
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,640
an inspiration for both her work
in dance and in science, and
410
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,520
loved her quote.
An act of observation is an act
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00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:39,640
of love that made me stop in my
tracks, and ever since this
412
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,040
interview, I've been looking,
listening.
413
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:45,880
Pausing.
A little more in my own
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00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:51,000
neighborhood in Burt, the birds,
squirrels, deer.
415
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,960
I feel their presence more, and
I observe them.
416
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,440
Two.
This interview expanded my
417
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,280
perspective by inviting me to
think about my place in a long
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00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,760
line of descendants, whether
that's musicians, coaches,
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00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,120
mothers, Asian women,
Baratanatiam is.
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00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,160
Steeped in history, And so is
science in the way that research
421
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,680
builds upon past research.
History matters so much to our
422
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,240
understanding of the world, and
people have done so much work in
423
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,880
every field that paves the way
for us to explore even further.
424
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,040
Three I've been reflecting on my
own answers to this question.
425
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,120
What is beauty?
Shloka shared that working with
426
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,680
older adults has shifted her
perspective on aesthetics.
427
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,440
Our culture is so geared towards
beauty being only associated
428
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,520
with youth.
But how do we find beauty in the
429
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,880
imperfect, the asymmetric, the
age?
430
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,840
There is that old saying that
inner beauty is more important
431
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,520
than outer beauty, but I think
you really have to look harder
432
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,350
for inner beauty.
And you have to look with more
433
00:25:07,350 --> 00:25:12,150
than just your eyes.
It's more of a feeling, a sense
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00:25:12,910 --> 00:25:18,550
and a connection.
Especially if I'm not warmed up.
435
00:25:18,550 --> 00:25:20,910
I mean it's like a very
physically exhausting thing, so
436
00:25:21,110 --> 00:25:26,950
starting sometimes a bit stiff,
a bit tired, but I I can feel a
437
00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:30,750
smile, you know, on my face, so
which is amazing.
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,640
Science cannot give us
everything.
2
00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,840
All the information there is and
that dance also does not.
3
00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,320
But together they really can
give us a more holistic view of
4
00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,000
the world around us.
What?
5
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Fuels A multipassionate life.
I'm Jessica Wan, and in this
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podcast I interview people who
straddle 2 completely different
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worlds.
I call them Ampersands and we
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are collectively designing the
Ampersand Manifesto.
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I'm excited to be talking with
Doctor Shloka Iyengar,
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neuroscientist and Bharatanatyam
dancer, who is passionate about
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relieving suffering through
science and the arts.
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For her PhD in postdoc work, she
studied the circuits in the
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brain that lead to the
generation and propagation of
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epileptic seizures.
She's worked with adults and
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children with epilepsy.
To develop better therapeutic
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strategies, Shloka is also an
award-winning baratanathium
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performer and practitioner who
has created productions that
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explore the many points of
convergence between dance and
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neuroscience.
She is passionate about using
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dance to facilitate healing and
creative aging.
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Shloka, welcome to the show.
Thank you.
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Thank you.
It's so nice to be here.
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Thank you for having me.
For listeners who may not be
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familiar with Bharatanatyam as
an art form, how do you
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typically describe it?
So Bharatanatyam is a 2000 year
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old dance form that originated
in the temples of South India.
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It is a traditional art form so
it is transmitted through.
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Teacher to disciple.
For the longest time it was oral
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tradition.
A lot of that is still
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maintained, of course, with
videos and photos that's a bit
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different.
But the connection between the
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guru or the teacher whose guru
is so much more than a teacher
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and the disciple of the student
is, is a very important part of
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this tradition.
As far as what the tradition
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entails, it is a codified set of
movements.
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Hand gestures, facial
expressions and the whole point
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of Bharathnatyam is to
communicate.
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So we are always communicating
to the audience.
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There is also a very, very
strong devotional aspect and the
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devotion could be to a deity, to
a God or a goddess, but not
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necessarily.
It could be to something that we
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feel is higher than ourselves,
but the.
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Concept of devotion which is
called bhakti really permeates
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every aspect of death.
So it's much more than a
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performance, it is the actual
learning.
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For me.
It's how I tie my sari, it is
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how I iron my sari and it is all
of those things that really make
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up not just the performance,
which might be 5 minutes, but it
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is everything that goes into
into the learning and sharing.
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As a young person growing up in
India, your work at an animal
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shelter sparked an interest in
the brain.
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Now you've been in the field of
neuroscience for almost 20
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years.
What is exciting and fascinating
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to you now as a scholar and
teacher?
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You know, thinking about
consciousness and what makes us
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conscious.
How do we know that we are
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conscious?
And is my puppy conscious?
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I think those questions of
consciousness and what makes an
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animal conscious, it's something
that I think I've gained more of
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an interest and now that I know
more about it, but I definitely
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am more curious about it as a
practitioner of science and
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dance and really trying to
articulate those links, how
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exactly dance affects the brain
and what it is in the brain.
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In our nervous systems that
allows and enables us to
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appreciate art.
How does consciousness relate to
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Baratanatyam and even this way
of life as you go about your day
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I?
Have to say, I don't know
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because I don't know what is
life without Baratanaty, but I
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mean I do see it in my older
adult dancers.
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How?
Being able to express themselves
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through dance changes.
I don't know if it changes their
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consciousness, I don't know how
we would know that.
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But I do know it changes their
perception of themselves, and it
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changes their perception of how
they view the world around them.
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What are some points of
convergence that you see between
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dance and neuroscience?
There's several in the way dance
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is taught, but for example, the
pedagogy of parathynatium and
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neuroscience.
So you know, there is a very
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clear structure and, you know,
one might think that having this
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structure is stifling.
You know, everything is written
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down.
And when I was in, you know,
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doing my undergrad back in
Ahmedabad, you know, you read
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all these like thick books and
it makes you feel like
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everything that should be
discovered has already been
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discovered.
Which, right, Like, it's like,
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Oh my God, There's like books
and books of of about the
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subject or that subject.
But the point, which I found out
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later as I was doing my PhD, is
that you have a framework by
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which you can understand the
world around you.
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And I think that's similar
pedagogy, the framework.
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So Bharathyanakim gives us a
framework of hand gestures or
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facial expressions.
You can use those to tell your
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own stories.
And similarly with neuroscience,
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you know, you have a framework
for asking questions.
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So we know we have this
information from the past.
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These are that some of the
hypothesis we can have and then
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try and address them.
Science, I don't know if it
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answers all questions.
I mean we don't know all what
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all the questions are so we
don't know if you know we are.
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We can answer all questions.
But I think as as disciplines
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and as ways of knowledge of
understanding who we are.
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Perhaps science is like you know
11 angle of like the quantified.
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Information of the world around
us.
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But then there's things.
And I give this example to my
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students.
I show a video of my puppy
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rolling around with the dirt.
So he's like a spring day and he
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loves like rolling around.
And his happiness or his joy is
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probably not something that can
be quantified.
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I mean, I guess we could find
ways to like.
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Quantify how many times he
rolls, or how many times he
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sniffs, or whatever.
But that uninhibited joy is
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something that perhaps science
is the science that we're doing
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right now cannot give us.
So thinking of different ways of
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knowledge and how they really
complement each other rather
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than contradict, I think that's
definitely one of the points of
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convergence.
In Bharatanatyam, you know we
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have, we have a lot of
depictions of animals.
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People might have seen.
Lord Lagonesia, who has his
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head, is that of an elephant.
We depict Peacocks and there's a
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lot of references to nature and
to animals.
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One of the series called
Creatures on the Move.
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I take animals in my
neighborhoods.
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I live in Uptown Manhattan and
talk about their nervous system,
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how it makes, how is the nervous
system?
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What it is.
So for example, if I take a worm
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and think about like, what is
the worm's nervous system, but
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also try to recreate that
movement through dance.
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And it's been amazing to think
about just what the diversity we
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have around us.
Even in a city like New York
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City where somebody might think
there is there, there are not
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that many animals.
But thinking about, you know,
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that what makes that animal's
movement unique?
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The act of observation, I think
is an act of love.
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So you have to observe like
each, each like segment that's
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moving, you know, one after
another And how could you not,
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right?
Like how could you not be in all
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of the world around us?
I love hearing about the
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storytelling aspect and how very
respectful this art form is as
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we humans evolve from animals
and we need animals in our world
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to survive on this planet.
One of the books of Baratana
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ATM, it's it's called Abhinaya
Darpana.
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And Darpana literally means a
mirror.
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So it literally means it's a
mirror of everything in the
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world around us.
So you know, we might do it in a
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way that's stylized, we might do
it with with props, with
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costumes with what.
But at the end of the day, it is
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still a mirror of our lives and
how amazing that a dance from
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that's 2000 years old has the
framework for us to think about
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our lives.
In your work as a scientist,
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you've collaborated with a wide
range of people in major
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pharmaceutical companies,
nonprofit organizations, and
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academia.
What kind of teamwork and
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collaboration needs to happen to
make science really work as a
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public good?
You know, as a scientist, I will
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say that scientists can do much
better.
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So for example, one of the
things is jargon, right?
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And you know, the jargon that we
use, the words that we use may
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be understandable to a small set
of people.
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For example, you know, people
look studying epilepsy or
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seizure disorders, but may not
be understandable to people that
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you know, don't happen to study
those things.
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So I think jargon, making things
understandable, but in a way
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that's not condescending.
I think that's very, very
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important because it's, you
know, it's and people can tell
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when you're.
Being understanding, it's not,
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you know, whether it's in the
written word or or spoken word,
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and that's the skill.
Honestly, we're not taught.
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At least I wasn't taught in my
graduate work.
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The only reason I gravitate
towards that was I love words
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and even as a child I would like
write for the Times of India.
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I've always, you know, as a
child I would sit and admire the
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shapes of words and letters and
I was really privileged to have
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that experience growing up as a
child.
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But it's not really training
that.
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Scientists are given, but I
think we saw what happens when
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we don't learn how to talk to
non scientists during the
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pandemic.
So you know, the fact that
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recommendations were changing
wasn't because people were
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making things up, it was because
we just know more and how do we
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build scientific literacy in a
way that's.
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We're not talking down to
people.
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We're not using jargon.
And because that's the way of
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exclusion in a way that we're
really thinking about that two
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way communication and not just.
I'm gonna tell you about
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science.
I think scientists just need to
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do a lot better as far as
getting to know our audiences,
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learning how to communicate in a
way that's respectful and not
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condescending.
How do you think your identity
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as a dancer, as an artist?
Has helped you as a scientist.
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I mean so many things.
I think the first of all is that
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you know that an item is a way
of communication.
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The way that you know we're
taught is it's not so much about
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how straight your your hands
are, how you know it is.
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It is about that.
But secondarily the first thing
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is that you always are
communicating and I think that.
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Maybe in a subconscious way is
always there.
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For example, I word got a
neurology clinic working with
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children that have refractory
epilepsy.
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So they may have, you know,
seizure disorders from infancy
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and really learned how to listen
first of all, even before
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talking, but listening to
parents of children with with
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epilepsies And in one
conversation, I remember this so
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well, they were asking me, oh,
what did you do before this?
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And then I was saying, oh, you
know, post out blah, blah.
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And one of the, you know, the
immediate reaction of the mother
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was that, well, you know, my
child is not a rat, which is I
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would say the same thing if
somebody said that to me if I
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used to pride myself on, you
know, like I know how to
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communicate with everybody.
But clearly there's always
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things to learn.
So, like for that population, I
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probably shouldn't have said the
things the way I did.
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But given that person item is
always about communication, you
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know, you're always, it's
outward in a way that is.
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We are taught about, you know,
the sequence of events.
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For example, how to communicate
a sequence of events through
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dance and what does that mean.
So for example, just as an
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example, if I say that my friend
is to my right, if I just say
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that, I shouldn't be doing
anything else to my right
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because people won't know if
it's my friend or if it's
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somebody else.
So even even demarcating.
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Characters and be having clarity
I think it's something that
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we're just comes up in
choreography because we have to
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be clear the sequence of events
has to be logical.
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For example if through my eyes
if I'm showing a house versus a
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mountain there has to be a
difference because a house is
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going to be much smaller than a
mountain and if I show stars
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they're going to be have to be
even higher.
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So and I think that clarity that
that sequence of events that is
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that is very very logical for a
conversation or for a for a
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story.
Really does help in science and
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scientific writing and
communication.
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Let's pause here for a moment to
reflect on this question.
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How could you improve
communication in your work to be
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more clear?
Outside of hosting this podcast,
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I partner with leaders in the
workplace as they rise up.
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00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,800
Perhaps you've gotten a
promotion, landed a new role, or
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00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,080
taken on a lot more
responsibility, and you need a
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00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,600
trusted sounding board to
support you as you support your
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00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,080
team.
I coach individuals and
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leadership teams to rise to the
challenge with my Ampersand
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00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,560
blend of analytical and
creative.
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00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,880
If any of this intrigues you,
reach out to me at jessica1.com.
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Now back to the show.
A current project of yours is
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Vitar, an online production
where you talk about the various
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points of connection between the
arts and the sciences.
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How did this idea come to be,
and what do you hope people will
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gain from this project?
The idea, actually, it has had
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been around for a while, but it
was last.
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So 2022, March, every, every
March, you know, neuroscientists
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come together in something
called the Brain Awareness Week.
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So it's just a week for people
to share their excitement about
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neuroscience, about, you know,
ranging from really clinical
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work to all sorts of things.
I knew there was a lot to say,
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but I wanted to.
Create a framework for
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articulating these convergences.
Between Barathanatim and
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neuroscience there have been
people looking at sciences and
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arts in general.
But you know, what I aim to do
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is very specifically look at
Barathanatim a, because no one
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else has done it in this way.
And secondly, I do think
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Barathanatim is very unique in
terms of what it is and what it
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gives us from what started as an
idea.
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Second, I should I should think
about it and write about it.
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It has led to some really
interesting collaborations.
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For example, I was invited to a
conference last year in Denver,
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which was for a group of people
that are caregivers.
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So these people, they go into
homes if there are children from
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zero to five years old.
And I was able to bring
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Bharathanatium and neuroscience
on the same stage by thinking
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about caregiving through the
lens of neuroscience and
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Bharathanatium.
So amazing experience, I was
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able to do lullabies again
bringing back.
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Science cannot give us
everything, all the information
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there is and that dance also
does not.
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But at together they really can
give us a more holistic view of
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the world around us.
So for this event, we talked
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about the neuroscience of
caregiving and thinking about
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what's happening in the brain
and combining it with
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Bharatanatyam, with lullabies,
with just just so many ways in
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which we we give care to.
People to plants to things
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around this and another example
was thinking about learning and
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teaching.
So you know learning and
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teaching and they're like huge
topics in neuroscience, in
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psychology, in philosophy too.
And I collaborated with a
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scientist who looks at
songbirds.
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He wants to understand in this
particular songbird or zebra
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Finch, the father bird teaches
the male bird and the the girl
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birds or the female birds can
vocalize but they don't sing but
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they.
Made for life.
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So the song of the boy is
probably the most important
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00:16:33,530 --> 00:16:36,450
thing he's gonna do because
that's what attract the mating
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00:16:36,450 --> 00:16:38,970
song.
And he was talking about error
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00:16:38,970 --> 00:16:42,170
detections trying to understand
how how do they know that
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they've made an error.
And you know he had a whole
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bunch of things about what
particular neurons probably tell
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the bird that he's made an error
and he should go practice.
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And then I was able to think
more largely about learning and
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teaching in Bharathanatyam for
this whole cycle of.
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You know, we learn the perfect
as much as we can.
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I don't know if we ever do, but
then we like the whole point is
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to transmit and to carry on that
knowledge to others.
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So those have been some really
interesting things that have
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come out of this convergence.
That's.
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Such an interesting analogy.
You've been awarded fellowships
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to use dance for community
service, the most recent one
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00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,240
being Su Casa by the Lower
Manhattan Cultural Council.
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A community arts engagement
program that places artists and
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organizations at senior centers.
What have you learned from this
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00:17:34,290 --> 00:17:37,450
experience?
First of all, a lot of things.
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I think my view of aesthetics or
what what what I consider
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beautiful, what I consider
symmetric, has totally changed.
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Because you know, with people 65
and older, many of them may have
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arthritis, many of them, you
know, whatever, I don't always
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know.
And it's all beautiful.
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They can all do a particular
hand gesture and there is still
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beauty in it.
And I always make it a point
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again to say it's not about what
is straight and what you know,
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It's about feeling.
If I'm doing this gesture with
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00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,880
my hands, and if I'm doing it
with feeling, I mean it.
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It will be beautiful by default.
I think my view of aesthetics
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00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:17,320
has definitely evolved, to be
quite honest.
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Working with them also.
When I first started again, this
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was last year, I had no idea of
how it would be received again.
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It's a dance form that's kind of
came from a very particular
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cultural context.
And what I always try to do is
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make it universal.
So take aspects of of this dance
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form, you know, for example, the
codified language of emotions,
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and if you all feel emotions, so
it's perhaps a bit easier to
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00:18:42,290 --> 00:18:45,050
relate.
My job is to always make bring
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00:18:45,050 --> 00:18:47,210
out the universality of this
dance form.
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I'm almost pleasantly surprised.
I think what people get out of
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it is just amazing.
And I, you know, I think my view
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00:18:53,260 --> 00:18:57,260
of aesthetics, my view of what I
can share, for example, and I
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00:18:57,260 --> 00:19:00,020
think people at least like, I've
been very lucky to work with
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00:19:00,020 --> 00:19:01,900
people who are also very
forgiving.
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00:19:02,140 --> 00:19:05,620
So, for example, if I do a
movement where people feel a bit
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00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:08,900
unstable.
They feel like they can tell me
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00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:12,020
first of all, and then I can
quickly adapt or, you know, do
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00:19:12,020 --> 00:19:13,580
something so that they don't
feel unstable.
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00:19:13,580 --> 00:19:17,260
So I'm so glad that my dancers
feel like they can tell me what
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00:19:17,260 --> 00:19:21,780
can we do to retain the beauty,
but then also make sure that,
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you know, my dancers feel safe
and they are safe.
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00:19:24,060 --> 00:19:28,020
So it's been a blessing,
definitely a privilege, to work
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with them.
You occupy such a unique space
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connecting these two
disciplines.
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00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,800
What advice do you have for
other ampersands who might be
346
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,640
seeking out a deeper connection,
or who hope to see their worlds
347
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,280
intersect in a more meaningful
way?
348
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:52,360
From my personal experience, I
would say do it because there's
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00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:57,200
never gonna be a perfect time
and we can always wait for when
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00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,840
is my idea perfect?
For me at least, there's never
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00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,680
gonna be a time when I feel like
I'm doing, you know?
352
00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:09,550
150% on both of those things,
but also finding a way to be
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00:20:09,550 --> 00:20:12,670
comfortable with, you know.
So if I write a small blog, blog
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00:20:12,670 --> 00:20:15,550
post, I wish I could, I wish I
could spend 2 hours for example,
355
00:20:15,910 --> 00:20:19,590
but I cannot.
And what is I shouldn't say good
356
00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:21,710
enough because it makes it seem
like it's not good.
357
00:20:21,710 --> 00:20:24,670
But what are we OK with
individually?
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00:20:25,150 --> 00:20:29,230
And then, you know, trying
because I think that's is the
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00:20:29,230 --> 00:20:34,340
only way to to move ahead.
The two things, at least from my
360
00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:37,620
journey, do it, just do it and
find a way that's safe.
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00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:41,140
So for example, for me it was,
you know, this blog V Char and I
362
00:20:41,140 --> 00:20:43,340
still remember thinking, you
know, if it if it's a failure,
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00:20:43,340 --> 00:20:45,260
that's that's OK.
You know, I would have tried I
364
00:20:45,260 --> 00:20:50,060
would have done something and
having a version of what we're
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00:20:50,060 --> 00:20:53,220
comfortable with.
How are you defining success for
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00:20:53,220 --> 00:20:56,340
your V char?
I think the only thing I would
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00:20:56,340 --> 00:21:01,360
say is if I'm having fun.
And I feel like the day when I
368
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:05,560
feel I don't feel excited about
it is probably when I know that
369
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,360
it's, you know, I should change
things or do something else.
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00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:13,560
But as long as I'm enjoying and
I'm having fun and I think it's,
371
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,080
it's providing something to the
community of, of scientists, of
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00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,960
artists, of people who might
have this convergence but don't
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00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,810
know what to do with it.
I think as long as those things
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00:21:23,810 --> 00:21:27,050
are there and I think the more
maybe this is a bit selfish, but
375
00:21:27,690 --> 00:21:30,370
if I don't have fun then I don't
do it for now.
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00:21:30,370 --> 00:21:34,330
It is that.
I love it having fun and being
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00:21:34,330 --> 00:21:37,730
true to yourself.
Through these interviews we're
378
00:21:37,730 --> 00:21:41,610
collectively creating principles
for leading a multi passionate
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00:21:41,610 --> 00:21:44,330
life.
What would you like to add to
380
00:21:44,330 --> 00:21:49,920
the Ampersand manifesto?
We may not always know how a
381
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,760
certain thing or a certain
activity is gonna pan out in the
382
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,360
future.
For example, you know, when I
383
00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:59,480
said yes, I teach evolution at
the Museum of Natural History,
384
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,000
You know, I mean, I said yes
because of course.
385
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,160
I mean, there's such an amazing
opportunity, but I didn't know
386
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:06,960
what, what else could come out
of it.
387
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,600
And looking back to where I am
now, I think the ideas about
388
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,560
evolution, about animals, about
ecology, I mean, a lot of those
389
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,520
come from teaching that course.
So I think.
390
00:22:17,190 --> 00:22:20,310
Perhaps like enjoying the
journey for what it is and not
391
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:23,510
necessarily thinking about where
this is gonna lead.
392
00:22:23,670 --> 00:22:26,910
You know, when I started taking
music lessons a few years ago, I
393
00:22:26,910 --> 00:22:29,310
never wanted to sing in public.
But I think, you know, I
394
00:22:29,310 --> 00:22:34,590
realized more and more I was
learning music for someone who's
395
00:22:34,590 --> 00:22:36,950
very soft spoken.
I think it's really gave me an
396
00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:40,630
opportunity to use my voice in a
way that that was helpful in
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00:22:40,630 --> 00:22:43,550
many other settings.
So you know, if something is
398
00:22:43,550 --> 00:22:46,780
interesting, if something.
Evokes joy.
399
00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:50,260
There are more reasons to adored
than than not.
400
00:22:51,260 --> 00:22:55,020
Shloka, it's been such a
pleasure talking with you folks.
401
00:22:55,020 --> 00:22:59,340
You can check out Shloka's work
at shlokaiyengar.net and we'll
402
00:22:59,340 --> 00:23:01,300
link to her website in our show
notes.
403
00:23:02,180 --> 00:23:06,180
If you liked this show, hit
like, subscribe and share with
404
00:23:06,180 --> 00:23:08,460
your friends and fellow
ampersands.
405
00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:13,820
And if you're listening on Apple
Podcasts, feel free to leave us
406
00:23:13,940 --> 00:23:17,360
a review.
I had a chance to listen back to
407
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:21,320
my conversation with Shloka and
I wanted to share a few key
408
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:26,200
takeaways.
One, Nature and Animals are such
409
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,640
an inspiration for both her work
in dance and in science, and
410
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,520
loved her quote.
An act of observation is an act
411
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:39,640
of love that made me stop in my
tracks, and ever since this
412
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,040
interview, I've been looking,
listening.
413
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:45,880
Pausing.
A little more in my own
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00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:51,000
neighborhood in Burt, the birds,
squirrels, deer.
415
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,960
I feel their presence more, and
I observe them.
416
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,440
Two.
This interview expanded my
417
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,280
perspective by inviting me to
think about my place in a long
418
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,760
line of descendants, whether
that's musicians, coaches,
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00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,120
mothers, Asian women,
Baratanatiam is.
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00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,160
Steeped in history, And so is
science in the way that research
421
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,680
builds upon past research.
History matters so much to our
422
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,240
understanding of the world, and
people have done so much work in
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00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,880
every field that paves the way
for us to explore even further.
424
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,040
Three I've been reflecting on my
own answers to this question.
425
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,120
What is beauty?
Shloka shared that working with
426
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,680
older adults has shifted her
perspective on aesthetics.
427
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,440
Our culture is so geared towards
beauty being only associated
428
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,520
with youth.
But how do we find beauty in the
429
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,880
imperfect, the asymmetric, the
age?
430
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,840
There is that old saying that
inner beauty is more important
431
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,520
than outer beauty, but I think
you really have to look harder
432
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,350
for inner beauty.
And you have to look with more
433
00:25:07,350 --> 00:25:12,150
than just your eyes.
It's more of a feeling, a sense
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00:25:12,910 --> 00:25:18,550
and a connection.
Especially if I'm not warmed up.
435
00:25:18,550 --> 00:25:20,910
I mean it's like a very
physically exhausting thing, so
436
00:25:21,110 --> 00:25:26,950
starting sometimes a bit stiff,
a bit tired, but I I can feel a
437
00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:30,750
smile, you know, on my face, so
which is amazing.
