Ampersand Character and Design with Liron Lavi Turkenich

0:04 Hello listener. We're excited to bring you another bonus episode. Today, we'll be talking about the Ampersand character and its role in typeface design. Joining me is the Rhone Lobby torque, a niche. And we'll be interviewing her about her Ampersand in season 2. So keep an eye out for that episode in the spring, the Rhone is the founder of out of it. Hey A hybrid writing system that merges Hebrew and Arabic, I can't think of a better expert to share with you with the Ampersand character is all about their own, welcome to the show. So happy to be here. A few months ago when we launched this podcast, you and I chatted about the Ampersand character and how special it is what makes it so unique. The empress, and we can continue the discussion for hours. But we said it's a short episode. So I think the a scent is, it's a very unique character, so it's not really punctuation, it's not really a letter, it started as a ligature, so a combination of two letters, but right now when thinking about the design of it, it really encompasses the design or the spirit of the whole typeface, the whole font that were looking at, but still, it's very creative. It's it has so much personality in it and it's always really Ting to see how a sin to look across typefaces and fonts something interesting to me

1:35 because as you know I'm a musician is that kind of curve of the Ampersand and it almost reminds me of like a treble clef and I wonder not all letters have retained that throughout history. Do you have any thoughts about why the a saint has kind of retained? All those kind of sensual curves Well, it's such a great question because if you're thinking, like, trying to recall a and shapes that you've seen across different typefaces and fonts, you would notice that there are several kinds or several shapes of them. Right there is the classic one that we often see in a, no AT&T, for instance.

2:21 And then there is the kind that looks like perhaps the e or the Epsilon. And then, there are other several kinds of shapes for this a cent To a certain point that some characters are not really looking like what we would expect in a second, but our mind is flexible enough to conceive it as one. And I think like from design perspective, the a scent is really hard to get right. Latin script is not my native script so I can tell from my experience designing a sense. It's always such a, it's such an interesting character to design because it's not exactly an 8 and the diagonals are Aren't really an X.

3:01 They're gonna lie would say and it's really hard to balance out. So I think this sensual curves they should look effortless. They should look very natural. But in fact, it's really hard to get them right and make them seem so flowing. And like they resemble some, some of the shapes of the letters or some of the inventory figures the numbers but not exactly. So it's really such a unique unique creature. Yeah, absolutely. In your work, as a typeface designer. Say you are working in a Latin script and you are going through all the letters. How did you approach the ampersands? Like, would it come towards first or towards last? And when would you even think about it? But I know that for others.

3:50 Damn percent is like that, you know, the creative Spirit, the joy of Designing a Cent. And there are even typefaces that are, you know, built only from a sense. So really interesting ones. There was one for this. A aid for donation that asked 400 designers to design and present and presents and you know how I'll type face was bent from them. So for some people this is like the fun part and they just want to start with it, get the juices creative juices flowing for me when I design it. I keep my save it towards the last bits because I already want to have the essence of this Thai place. I To know how the balance is going, how the color, which is how we refer to the weight. And, you know, boiled light and have that works. And how the balance is between them, the verticals and horizontals, and once I figure this out, then the a scent is, you know, it's nicer to design or it's easier. In that sense, like they're there. I already have the building blocks and now I can enjoy and put the creativity into place.

4:57 Hmm, it does sound like save Being the best for last in a way. Yeah, I love the a saint a lot of your expertise has been rooted in Hebrew and the Ampersand character is rooted in Latin languages. As we discovered in the last episode, it's originally ligature. Where do you see commonalities between the Ampersand character and what exists in other languages like Hebrew? I was trying to think of like, when you were asking This question I was trying to think of ligatures that are kind of behaving in the same way or in a similar way in Hebrew. So let's use Hebrew.

5:37 Is it as a case study? Because you know I feel very comfortable with it. So in the past we did have any future for the word. God. So it was two letters and now it's rarely used sometimes, you know, as an anecdote, or like, if it fun fun fact, or find lift to design, but it used to be in manuscripts in written manuscripts. And now I think the ligature that we use most perhaps in a way sort of like the A and we use it for the currency symbol of the shackle, the the Hebrew currency. So it's an editor of two letters and also some of it reminds me of the a cent because this is a way for you to kind of put some some energy or some feeling into the design and then you also have the challenge which is also similar in the a sent the challenge to match it with the figures with the numbers and With the letters and you have to try and balance everything together.

6:33 So it's like the glue I would say to the typeface, the a scent as well and also these strands is symbol of the shekel. Hmm, that is so fascinating. Their own. It's been such a pleasure talking with you today and I am so excited to do your full interview in season 2. Thank you so much folks, you can check out Leroy Jones website at their own david.com, that's Lir onl AVI or you can follow her on Instagram at their own love. If you enjoyed season 1 of the Ampersand Manifesto and haven't left a review yet, please help us out. Written reviews are currently only available on the Apple podcasts app.

7:20 So if you have an iPhone or a Mac, this is the best way to support the show. We really appreciate it and it really only takes five minutes. As you're wrapping up, 2022, what Reflections are coming to mine? What goals, do you have going into 2023? If you are a verbal processor, chances are that you'd benefit from having a sounding board as a coach. I love doing this work. I love helping leaders like you, clarify, what's important? And to create plans to take action, let's chat. You can find me at Jessica one.com happy. Holidays. Stay well and keep embracing, you're a saint.

8:05 Dive designer, who said that the a sentence, like, the dinosaur. That's kind of, didn't get extinct for some reason, and he kept on being in the typeface. Dive designer, who said that the a sentence, like, the dinosaur. That's kind of, didn't get extinct for some reason, and he kept on being in the typeface.