Ampersand Character and Design with Liron Lavi Turkenich

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Hello listener.
We're excited to bring you

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another bonus episode.
Today, we'll be talking about

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the Ampersand character and its
role in typeface design.

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Joining me is the Rhone Lobby
torque, a niche.

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And we'll be interviewing her
about her Ampersand in season 2.

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So keep an eye out for that
episode in the spring, the Rhone

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is the founder of out of it.
Hey A hybrid writing system that

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merges Hebrew and Arabic, I
can't think of a better expert

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to share with you with the
Ampersand character is all about

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their own, welcome to the show.
So happy to be here.

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A few months ago when we
launched this podcast, you and I

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chatted about the Ampersand
character and how special it is

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what makes it so unique.
The empress, and we can continue

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the discussion for hours.
But we said it's a short

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episode.
So I think the a scent is, it's

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a very unique character, so it's
not really punctuation, it's not

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really a letter, it started as a
ligature, so a combination of

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two letters, but right now when
thinking about the design of it,

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it really encompasses the design
or the spirit of the whole

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typeface, the whole font that
were looking at, but still, it's

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very creative.
It's it has so much personality

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in it and it's always really
Ting to see how a sin to look

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across typefaces and fonts
something interesting to me

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because as you know I'm a
musician is that kind of curve

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of the Ampersand and it almost
reminds me of like a treble clef

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and I wonder not all letters
have retained that throughout

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history.
Do you have any thoughts about

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why the a saint has kind of
retained?

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All those kind of sensual curves
Well, it's such a great question

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because if you're thinking,
like, trying to recall a and

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shapes that you've seen across
different typefaces and fonts,

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you would notice that there are
several kinds or several shapes

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of them.
Right there is the classic one

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that we often see in a, no AT&T,
for instance.

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And then there is the kind that
looks like perhaps the e or the

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Epsilon.
And then, there are other

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several kinds of shapes for this
a cent To a certain point that

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some characters are not really
looking like what we would

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expect in a second, but our mind
is flexible enough to conceive

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it as one.
And I think like from design

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perspective, the a scent is
really hard to get right.

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Latin script is not my native
script so I can tell from my

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experience designing a sense.
It's always such a, it's such an

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interesting character to design
because it's not exactly an 8

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and the diagonals are Aren't
really an X.

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They're gonna lie would say and
it's really hard to balance out.

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So I think this sensual curves
they should look effortless.

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They should look very natural.
But in fact, it's really hard to

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get them right and make them
seem so flowing.

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And like they resemble some,
some of the shapes of the

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letters or some of the inventory
figures the numbers but not

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exactly.
So it's really such a unique

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unique creature.
Yeah, absolutely.

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In your work, as a typeface
designer.

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Say you are working in a Latin
script and you are going through

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all the letters.
How did you approach the

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ampersands?
Like, would it come towards

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first or towards last?
And when would you even think

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about it?
But I know that for others.

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Damn percent is like that, you
know, the creative Spirit, the

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joy of Designing a Cent.
And there are even typefaces

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that are, you know, built only
from a sense.

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So really interesting ones.
There was one for this.

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A aid for donation that asked
400 designers to design and

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present and presents and you
know how I'll type face was bent

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from them.
So for some people this is like

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the fun part and they just want
to start with it, get the juices

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creative juices flowing for me
when I design it.

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I keep my save it towards the
last bits because I already want

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to have the essence of this Thai
place.

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I To know how the balance is
going, how the color, which is

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how we refer to the weight.
And, you know, boiled light and

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have that works.
And how the balance is between

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them, the verticals and
horizontals, and once I figure

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this out, then the a scent is,
you know, it's nicer to design

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or it's easier.
In that sense, like they're

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there.
I already have the building

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blocks and now I can enjoy and
put the creativity into place.

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Hmm, it does sound like save
Being the best for last in a

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way.
Yeah, I love the a saint a lot

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of your expertise has been
rooted in Hebrew and the

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Ampersand character is rooted in
Latin languages.

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As we discovered in the last
episode, it's originally

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ligature.
Where do you see commonalities

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between the Ampersand character
and what exists in other

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languages like Hebrew?
I was trying to think of like,

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when you were asking This
question I was trying to think

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of ligatures that are kind of
behaving in the same way or in a

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similar way in Hebrew.
So let's use Hebrew.

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Is it as a case study?
Because you know I feel very

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comfortable with it.
So in the past we did have any

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future for the word.
God.

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So it was two letters and now
it's rarely used sometimes, you

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know, as an anecdote, or like,
if it fun fun fact, or find lift

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to design, but it used to be in
manuscripts in written

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manuscripts.
And now I think the ligature

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that we use most perhaps in a
way sort of like the A and we

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use it for the currency symbol
of the shackle, the the Hebrew

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currency.
So it's an editor of two letters

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and also some of it reminds me
of the a cent because this is a

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way for you to kind of put some
some energy or some feeling into

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the design and then you also
have the challenge which is also

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similar in the a sent the
challenge to match it with the

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figures with the numbers and
With the letters and you have to

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try and balance everything
together.

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So it's like the glue I would
say to the typeface, the a scent

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as well and also these strands
is symbol of the shekel.

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Hmm, that is so fascinating.
Their own.

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It's been such a pleasure
talking with you today and I am

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so excited to do your full
interview in season 2.

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Thank you so much folks, you can
check out Leroy Jones website at

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their own david.com, that's Lir
onl AVI or you can follow her on

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Instagram at their own love.
If you enjoyed season 1 of the

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really only takes five minutes.
As you're wrapping up, 2022,

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what Reflections are coming to
mine?

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What goals, do you have going
into 2023?

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If you are a verbal processor,
chances are that you'd benefit

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from having a sounding board as
a coach.

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I love doing this work.
I love helping leaders like you,

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clarify, what's important?
And to create plans to take

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action, let's chat.
You can find me at Jessica

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one.com happy.
Holidays.

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Stay well and keep embracing,
you're a saint.

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Dive designer, who said that the
a sentence, like, the dinosaur.

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That's kind of, didn't get
extinct for some reason, and he

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kept on being in the typeface.
Dive designer, who said that the

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a sentence, like, the dinosaur.
That's kind of, didn't get

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extinct for some reason, and he
kept on being in the typeface.